Stop EU banning red diesel use for Narrowboats. sign UGov petition here

[Capt.Golightly]

The EU is attempting to enforce tighter controls on Red Diesel excluding its use on Narrowboats and Leisure Craft in the UK. Enough signatures automatically triggers a debate in the Commons. http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/52421

[mrsmelly]

The EU is attempting to enforce tighter controls on Red Diesel excluding its use on Narrowboats and Leisure Craft in the UK. Enough signatures automatically triggers a debate in the Commons. http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/52421

Diesel was fifty pence a gallon when I became a liveaboard not too many years ago. It will continue to rise, we dont need a petition re a debate in the house of commons we need out the stupid, strangling EU...........but it will never happen, no one dare give us a vote until its too late.

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

I have attracted flak elsewhere for questioning what I consider very poor wording in this petition - but I really don't think it helps!

 

 

Ultimately we want the right to use Red Diesel for propulsion on leisure boats restored.

 

In the eyes of our government, and HMRC, we currently have the right to use Red Diesel for propulsion on leisure boats, (albeit at increased tax levels), and most of us exploit this.

So I struggle to sign a petition that implies we have already lost that right, (even if the EU want us to!).

It simply isn't correct wording, in my view.

[matty40s]

I am pretty sure this matter has already been out to grass in the EU.

There was much tooing and froing last year with our own eu mp's getting involved.

[alan_fincher]

I am pretty sure this matter has already been out to grass in the EU.

There was much tooing and froing last year with our own eu mp's getting involved.

No - the EU are not lying down on the matter.

 

Recent BBC News Item

 

But perhaps someone can explain to me more fully why petitioning the UK government is going to change things.

 

The UK government has never wanted any change in this area, and only put in current arrangements under duress.

 

Its not them we need to convince it needs leaving alone is it, or am I missing something obvious?

[carlt]

They should have switched to white when this all kicked off, with the option of installing a second tank for domestic use.

[Laurence Hogg]

Cant see the point of this. Red diesel cannot be used in campervans, our cars etc so why should be allowed in a pleasure boat? Why should a lorry taking hay away from a farm be under different guidelines to a tractor that works on the farm?

Should be a flat rate for all.

EU rules - better we are out IMHO!

[carlt]

Cant see the point of this. Red diesel cannot be used in campervans, our cars etc so why should be allowed in a pleasure boat?

 

 

EU rules - better we are out IMHO!

But the EU agrees with you on this point (as do I).

[Guest]

Because of the dearth of red diesel sellers on our patch we often use white any way theses days so selfishly I will say it will have little impact on us.

[Paul C]

Cant see the point of this. Red diesel cannot be used in campervans, our cars etc so why should be allowed in a pleasure boat? Why should a lorry taking hay away from a farm be under different guidelines to a tractor that works on the farm?

Should be a flat rate for all.

EU rules - better we are out IMHO!

 

1. Because a boat's diesel is used for domestic, eg battery charging, heating, in the same way that a house would use electricity and gas - and these aren't taxed like propulsion fuels. The proportion of diesel which is used for propulsion, IS taxed.

 

2. The lorry is transport because its on the public roads, the tractor is being used mainly off the public highway. Tractors do jobs other than transport, eg lifting, harvesting, cultivation, mowing etc and a large percentage of the power of the tractor goes into the implement, with only a little used for actually moving it along (at a slow speed).

[cotswoldsman]

Cant see the point of this. Red diesel cannot be used in campervans, our cars etc so why should be allowed in a pleasure boat? Why should a lorry taking hay away from a farm be under different guidelines to a tractor that works on the farm?

Should be a flat rate for all.

EU rules - better we are out IMHO!

Laurence I have to disagree here without entering the farming debate. In the winter months 85% of my diesel is used for generating electricity and a small amount for heating. Now my house the oils I use for heating has lower VAT and Duty so why should it not be the same for a boat. It is a long time since I saw an electricity bill but seem to remember the VAT was 5%

As for the petition I agree with Alan it is badly worded and aimed at the wrong people. I am a big supporter of the EU but in this case I think they are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I am concerned for the thousands of low income pensioners who have moved and live on boats (well all low income boaters actually) it is difficult enough for them to make ends meet without a tax that at the end of the day raises minimal income for the government.

[Doorman]

Is it any wonder that this government's implementation of the 20% 'temporary' VAT rate was allowed to go unchecked, so easily, with attitudes like this?

 

I wouldn't mind if the blithering idiots used the tax revenue wisely. HS2 anybody?

[Higgs]

Pleasure, leisure ??

 

Hire boats and holiday makers, I think.

 

Given that most of us liveaboards do not have separate tanks to run the engine when cruising and one that runs the engine when charging for lights etc, and it's silly to use words like pleasure and leisure as the reasons we use boats, I think the fuel split tax used is good enough.

 

There is of course pleasure and leisure, but no more so than living in a pleasure or leisure house that has heating fuel and domestic needs. I can't see the sense in this petty policy.

 

It's stupid to place all the emphasis on the leisure aspects when the nature of boating is mixed. Distinctions in the use of fuel, other than leisure.

 

The revenue it raises is revenue for the sake of revenue, and blunt.

[Henhouse]

Road going trucks do use red diesel. If a separate tank is fitted it may be used to run refrigeration units, Eberspacher type night heaters, vacuum pump discharge systems etc.

 

White must be used for propulsion.

 

 

Compared to the haulage industry boaters use only a tiny amount of fuel. The problem issue therefore is that suppliers to boats, ( in the main boatyards ) would not find it economic to install storage, and pumping / metering equipment to handle the sale of two different fuels.

 

Hence the current compromise of one fuel type and a declaration of intended usage.

 

In the grand scheme of things the amount of revenue raised by increased duty is probably negligible to the government.

 

My personal view is that all fuel for boats should be red, and at the rebated rate.

 

If I were to be pedantic, I would argue that the tax on white ie DERV is called ROAD FUEL DUTY, and as such cannot be applied to fuel used in a non road going vehicle.

[DaveC]

Now my house the oils I use for heating has lower VAT and Duty so why should it not be the same for a boat. It is a long time since I saw an electricity bill but seem to remember the VAT was 5%

 

 

 

I thought the VAT on red diesel stayed at 5%.

 

 

 

Dave

[furnessvale]

 

 

If I were to be pedantic, I would argue that the tax on white ie DERV is called ROAD FUEL DUTY, and as such cannot be applied to fuel used in a non road going vehicle.

The government will tell you that there is no hypothecation of duty on fuel.

 

The real issue is that, alone amongst non road users of red diesel, leisure boating has been singled out to use white fuel (or pay white rates) in a non road situation. WHY?

 

Every other leisure user of red diesel in a non road situation is exempt.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

Edited July 14, 2013 by furnessvale

[Higgs]

The government will tell you that there is no hypothecation of duty on fuel.

 

The real issue is that, alone amongst non road users of red diesel, leisure boating has been singled out to use white fuel (or pay white rates) in a non road situation. WHY?

 

Every other leisure user of red diesel in a non road situation is exempt.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

The word implies having fun on the cheap fuel rate; a 'leisure' activity and not essential. A luxury. It is wrong to keep using the word leisure, or to let the policy makers use it, only.

Edited July 14, 2013 by Higgs

[bassplayer]

Laurence I have to disagree here without entering the farming debate. In the winter months 85% of my diesel is used for generating electricity and a small amount for heating. Now my house the oils I use for heating has lower VAT and Duty so why should it not be the same for a boat. It is a long time since I saw an electricity bill but seem to remember the VAT was 5%

As for the petition I agree with Alan it is badly worded and aimed at the wrong people. I am a big supporter of the EU but in this case I think they are using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I am concerned for the thousands of low income pensioners who have moved and live on boats (well all low income boaters actually) it is difficult enough for them to make ends meet without a tax that at the end of the day raises minimal income for the government.

I don't have a problem with the cost because I use imaginary diesel in my imaginary boat...at least someone is at least trying to DO something constructive by starting a petition...

[Higgs]

I don't have a problem with the cost because I use imaginary diesel in my imaginary boat...at least someone is at least trying to DO something constructive by starting a petition...

 

The petition is wrecked by bad wording.

[bassplayer]

 

The petition is wrecked by bad wording.

I'm not great at wording myself, but if anyone can do a better job then why not start their own..I'll sign it....

[nicknorman]

 

The real issue is that, alone amongst non road users of red diesel, leisure boating has been singled out to use white fuel (or pay white rates) in a non road situation. WHY?

 

 

Because someone in Brussels was jealous of the myriad of super-yachts languishing in Cannes, St Tropez etc and resented them getting fuel on the cheap. Canal boats in the UK did not figure on their radar at all.

 

The same now applies to jet fuel used in aviation, you have to pay a higher rate of duty for leisure, vs commercial use. It cost me an extra 500 euro when I filled up in France a couple of years ago, because I forgot to take proof that the helicopter was a commercial one (and not my personal 20,000,000 euro toy!)

 

Ps I see the forum doesn't do the euro sign!

Edited July 14, 2013 by nicknorman

[matty40s]

I don't have a problem with the cost because I use imaginary diesel in my imaginary boat...at least someone is at least trying to DO something constructive by starting a petition...

what split do you imagine you declare??

 

 

I think the main worry as far as boats are concerned is the hire boat holiday cost if the concession is withdrawn.

to this effect, a far more powerful lobbying tool is the hire boat companies and their getting together on this.

[bassplayer]

what split do you imagine you declare??

 

 

I think the main worry as far as boats are concerned is the hire boat holiday cost if the concession is withdrawn.

to this effect, a far more powerful lobbying tool is the hire boat companies and their getting together on this.

Lol..doesn't mean that any other lobbying tool is a complete waste of time either though...

[Higgs]

I'm not great at wording myself, but if anyone can do a better job then why not start their own..I'll sign it....

 

It's not that I didn't want to sign up to an objection. IMO, it should encompass more than indications of a leisure persuit as we already have the split use tax for propulsion and domestic uses. If the pertition is going to mention the British people and leisure, then, it is too vague/broad, and the last line doesn't really put the case.

 

It helps the policy people portray some sort of a decadent passtime.

[Tuscan]

I think a better targeted and worded petition would attract more support. However boating is seen as a rich mans sport by the vast majority in the UK and Europe and the cost of deisel being the same as they put in their cars is not something I suspect that attracts much sympathy of the general public or government.

 

Perhaps we should be more concerned of the millions of poverty trapped public who are stuck in fuel poverty of which boaters are a very small minority. Recent governments have just ducked this issue and taxed the poorest through the wind farm subsidies etc. Ok I'll get my coat....