ls lt Lawful ? Buy 6 and pay for 12 .....

[Badger3]

Hi one and all I am new to boating due to the lovely lady in my life now

To cut along story short......my girlfriends boat was out of the water on private land being painted etc ready for her grand voyage...I was amazed that she had to pay for a whole years gold constant cruising licence in June !!!!! Get six months pay for twelve!!!!!! I phoned the relevant people and asked why? The answer came back for the up keep of the rivers and locks....which I have no problem with if we were using them.....while on the phone I asked the guy would he buy my car and add 6 months road tax on top of the sale price? I think you know the answer...eh NO.

Anyhow am I the only one who thinks this is legal but not lawful?

I look forward to your thoughts as my boating knowledge is next to zero but learning fast namaste.

[alan_fincher]

It is because you are applying for a "Gold" licence I think. These are only available with a 1st January start date, because that is how (I think!) all EA licences work.

 

CRT can handle licencing that starts on the first of any month, so a "Canals and Rivers" licence for CRT waters that was not "Gold" to include EA would run a full year from first purchase, irrespective of month.

[MtB]

Becuaere that's the deal with Gold Licences. They run from 1st Jan to 31st Dec, take it or leave it is their attitude. Nothing unlawful about it, nobody forced her to buy a boat.

 

Why not buy a CRT-only licence from 1st July and stick to the canals only? There may be a six month licence to get her to end of Dec then she can buy a Gold for next year and get full value for money.

 

Hope that helps

 

MtB

[Paul C]

If you buy car tax towards the end of the month, you need to pay for the whole of that month. Its a similar analogy with the Gold licence except its a year, not a month.

[MtB]

Ah I see Alan beat me to it!

[RLWP]

Buy 6, pay for 12 is a bit misleading, isn't it. You bought 1 and paid for 1

 

Richard

[Badger3]

THanks Alan and nearly mike

Unlawful is a contradiction in terms....lawful is pay for the previous month as in car tax not a full year, lawful is moral guidance , anyhow seems to be the nature of the beast the golden beast !!! We had to go gold because of the silly pries for using other water ways for our six week tour before I start work in Cambridge.

[FadeToScarlet]

Your gold licence won't cover you for the Cam above Bottisham lock, I'm afraid, if you're coming this way by boat.

[MtB]

THanks Alan and nearly mike

Unlawful is a contradiction in terms....lawful is pay for the previous month as in car tax not a full year, lawful is moral guidance

Eh???????????

 

I hope you aren't a solicitor!

 

 

MtB

[Paul C]

Another possibility is 6 months canal (CRT) licence and short term licence for the rivers you want to use. Then go gold in Jan 14.

[Badger3]

Eh???????????I hope you aren't a solicitor!:DMtB

Could not be any further lol dryliner

Your gold licence won't cover you for the Cam above Bottisham lock, I'm afraid, if you're coming this way by boat.

It ok all sorted thanks had a chat to pip,

[Black Ibis]

It ok all sorted thanks had a chat to pip,

 

Where will you be mooring? We're on Midsummer Common so we may be neighbours!

[Badger3]

Where will you be mooring? We're on Midsummer Common so we may be neighbours!

We are on a cc licence so can't stay more that 14 days no home address ......I will have to claim my car back for a few weeks to commute plus cycle when we call Cambridge way

Pip said no chance of getting a mooring anywhere near Cambridge !!!! but we do have a plan B and C keep ya posted

It is because you are applying for a "Gold" licence I think. These are only available with a 1st January start date, because that is how (I think!) all EA licences work.

 

CRT can handle licencing that starts on the first of any month, so a "Canals and Rivers" licence for CRT waters that was not "Gold" to include EA would run a full year from first purchase, irrespective of month.

I like the sound of the second licence could you point me in the direction of the site you gained the information from please, I CC licence that I could use on EA and CRT water ways would be fab

[Black Ibis]

We are on a cc licence so can't stay more that 14 days no home address ......I will have to claim my car back for a few weeks to commute plus cycle when we call Cambridge way

Pip said no chance of getting a mooring anywhere near Cambridge !!!! but we do have a plan B and C keep ya posted

 

I like the sound of the second licence could you point me in the direction of the site you gained the information from please, I CC licence that I could use on EA and CRT water ways would be fab

 

 

Afraid that on EA/Cam Conservancy waters there is no CC option/14 day rule. You can't just moor anywhere on the towpath as you can on the canals - the land is often private and moorings are only permitted on designated visitor moorings and all visitor moorings are 48hr only. And they are often full unfortunately. There are two sets in Cambridge. There are additional visitor moorings in Waterbeach (also 48hr) and you can commute in to Cambridge by train from there (6 minutes). Similarly Ely is a short train ride away, as is LIttleport, and there are moorings all down the Ouse which are served by the X5 bus into Cambridge. I'd suggest joining GOBA to get access to quite a few more (also 48hr).

 

In terms of longterm moorings it's a shame you already have a boat, as there are two currently for sale in Cambridge which come with moorings! One Two

Edited July 10, 2013 by Black Ibis

[Badger3]

Afraid that on EA/Cam Conservancy waters there is no CC option/14 day rule. You can't just moor anywhere on the towpath as you can on the canals - the land is often private and moorings are only permitted on designated visitor moorings and all visitor moorings are 48hr only. And they are often full unfortunately. There are two sets in Cambridge. There are additional visitor moorings in Waterbeach (also 48hr) and you can commute in to Cambridge by train from there (6 minutes). Similarly Ely is a short train ride away, as is LIttleport, and there are moorings all down the Ouse which are served by the X5 bus into Cambridge. I'd suggest joining GOBA to get access to quite a few more (also 48hr).

 

In terms of longterm moorings it's a shame you already have a boat, as there are two currently for sale in Cambridge which come with moorings! One Two

Thanks for the heads up on the two boats for sale....as you know I am new to boating and it seems different river have different rules....I have a question which links loosely to what you said (black ibis) and what a guy was saying to me this morning....if the land you are moored on is private...you can stay as long as you want? Is this true?

Private = no rules? Seems odd to me........ But I guess the river authorities are not claiming they own the water we float on just the banks we moor to.

Another possibility is 6 months canal (CRT) licence and short term licence for the rivers you want to use. Then go gold in Jan 14.

You would think that would you not Paul....I phoned the EA and they wanted us to pay around two hundred pounds for one month on their system..... Which when you work out the cost of six months plus 2/3 extra months of EA prices gold was the only way glad we are going through the middle levels on our journey far less fuss there I believe ?

[Black Ibis]

Thanks for the heads up on the two boats for sale....as you know I am new to boating and it seems different river have different rules....I have a question which links loosely to what you said (black ibis) and what a guy was saying to me this morning....if the land you are moored on is private...you can stay as long as you want? Is this true?

Private = no rules? Seems odd to me........ But I guess the river authorities are not claiming they own the water we float on just the banks we moor to.

 

If the land is privately owned, then provided you have the permission of the landowner before you moor up you can stay as long as they are happy for you to continue mooring there*. But if you moor up without permission, then the landowner is within his/her rights to prosecute for trespass.

 

And no, the river authorities (i.e the EA/Conservancy) are NOT claiming to own the banks we moor to. In some areas, they do, but along a lot of the rivers the EA do not own the land, even if there's a path alongside. This is where it differs to the canals because the Canal and Rivers Trust (formerly BW) DO own the entire towpath. Which is why you can moor anywhere as long as it's towpath side. (This is a generalisation of course, and I'm sure there are exceptions, but broadly this is true)

 

*subject to complexities of planning permission in terms of residential/non residential boats, but that's a local council issue not a waterways authority one.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Black Ibis

[Badger3]

If the land is privately owned, then *provided you have the permission of the landowner before you moor up* you can stay as long as they are happy for you to continue mooring there. But if you moor up without permission, then the landowner is within his/her rights to prosecute for trespass.

 

And no, the river authorities (i.e the EA/Conservancy) are NOT claiming to own the banks we moor to. In some areas, they do, but along a lot of the rivers the EA do not own the land, even if there's a path alongside. This is where it differs to the canals because the Canal and Rivers Trust (formerly BW) DO own the entire towpath. Which is why you can moor anywhere as long as it's towpath side. (This is a generalisation of course, and I'm sure there are exceptions, but broadly this is true)

That sounds about right, I could not put it better myself thanks for your help black ibis, maybe catch ya some time for a coffee when we make it to Cambridge our water pump (engine) is nearly fixed now and we will be off on our travels again fingers crossed for Camden market on Sunday

[Black Ibis]

That sounds about right, I could not put it better myself thanks for your help black ibis, maybe catch ya some time for a coffee when we make it to Cambridge our water pump (engine) is nearly fixed now and we will be off on our travels again fingers crossed for Camden market on Sunday

Yes, do send me a PM when you are in the area Enjoy the trip! Where are you now? We made it from London to Cambridge in 9 days last time we were down that way, but we do put in long days!

 

Also see my edit to my post above:

*all this subject to complexities of planning permission in terms of residential/non residential boats, but that's a local council issue not a waterways authority one.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Black Ibis

[Neil2]

Hi one and all I am new to boating due to the lovely lady in my life now

To cut along story short......my girlfriends boat was out of the water on private land being painted etc ready for her grand voyage...I was amazed that she had to pay for a whole years gold constant cruising licence in June !!!!! Get six months pay for twelve!!!!!! I phoned the relevant people and asked why? The answer came back for the up keep of the rivers and locks....which I have no problem with if we were using them.....while on the phone I asked the guy would he buy my car and add 6 months road tax on top of the sale price? I think you know the answer...eh NO.

Anyhow am I the only one who thinks this is legal but not lawful?

I look forward to your thoughts as my boating knowledge is next to zero but learning fast namaste.

You think that's unfair - a few years ago when we were experiencing severe water shortages BW closed the top section of the Leeds Liverpool where we had our mooring and advised us to move our boat as they couldn't maintain the water level in the pound.

 

When I asked about a rebate on the mooring fees I was told to consult the mooring agreement which basically says you have to pay the fees in full regardless of whether there is actually any water in the canal.

 

Now, in my view, that is unlawful. I wish I had pursued it further but we were selling the boat and giving up the mooring anyway.

[Badger3]

Neil totally unfair but that is the joy of contracts, they always wriggle their way out !!!

I guess the EA and RaCT have the same clauses in the boat licences we all buy? (its my girlfirends boat not mine) and let's not forget the Thames with their amazing mooring spots !!!!! ( ok if you are part mountain goat )

Moored up outside Hampton court at the mo on another shallow Thames spot crunch crunch

Anyhow not owning a tv or radio how's the world doing out there any water shortages yet? We hope to come back up the union to the Northampton arm ......

[Badger3]

Just thought I would update my progress.....I have been in contact with the canals and river trust asking why they charge for 12 months jan to dec for the gold licence.....I explained that I won't be getting a boat Untill well into the year and why should I pay for the full 12 months, also I put in my letter that is not acceptable to say for the upkeep of the waterways as I will not be using them for the full year, but have no problem paying the the next year as I will own a boat from jan 1st......I got a nice reply saying that they issues gold licence for 12 months only.... BECAUSE the envoroment do the same !!!! No reason just because they do it we do it!!!!! ( I did manage not to type if I jumped off a cliff would you??? sentence lmao) .......also they did say that they were thinking in a few years making it rolling like the other licences....buy it at any point in the year......I sent a nice letter back saying that is not a satifactory answer and could they forward my question to the enviorment agency.....I am waiting for a reply......hope you are all well out there namaste xxx

[FadeToScarlet]

Just thought I would update my progress.....I have been in contact with the canals and river trust asking why they charge for 12 months jan to dec for the gold licence.....I explained that I won't be getting a boat Untill well into the year and why should I pay for the full 12 months, also I put in my letter that is not acceptable to say for the upkeep of the waterways as I will not be using them for the full year, but have no problem paying the the next year as I will own a boat from jan 1st......I got a nice reply saying that they issues gold licence for 12 months only.... BECAUSE the envoroment do the same !!!! No reason just because they do it we do it!!!!! ( I did manage not to type if I jumped off a cliff would you??? sentence lmao) .......also they did say that they were thinking in a few years making it rolling like the other licences....buy it at any point in the year......I sent a nice letter back saying that is not a satifactory answer and could they forward my question to the enviorment agency.....I am waiting for a reply......hope you are all well out there namaste xxx

I think you're misunderstanding the complexity of a Gold licence. It's not just between CRT and the EA, but various different regions of the EA- Anglian, Thames, etc.- that all normally have separate licences.

 

Can you imagine the bureaucratic faff of informing all those areas which craft are licenced, updating them all about new craft buying licences, etc.? Far easier to run all the licences for one period of time, and allow no changes.

 

'We do it because they do it' isn't a poor excuse, it's at the heart of the matter- all the signatory navigation authorities HAVE to do the same thing, or it falls apart.

 

I think you're on a hiding to nothing here.

 

I'd also be willing to bet you'd be better off buying short term licences for the waterways you want to use- or buying a years CRT licence, if that's where your boat will mostly be, with occasional short term EA licences, and getting a refund from CRT for the unused portion in January when you buy the Gold licence.

[arpeeuk]

Have you looked into buying a 12month standard canal licence and then upgrading it to Gold? I believe that CaRT will refund you and whole months on your standard licence when you upgrade. This way you'll probably have to pay for a month more than you need but this is a lot better than wasting 9 months of a gold license.

 

Rik

[OldGoat]

Have you looked into buying a 12month standard canal licence and then upgrading it to Gold? I believe that CaRT will refund you and whole months on your standard licence when you upgrade. This way you'll probably have to pay for a month more than you need but this is a lot better than wasting 9 months of a gold license.

 

Rik

Agreed - CaRT will refund (probably credit you) when taking out the Gold.

It's an archaic system, originally set up as a concession - probably because EA wanted more boats to use their rivers. It's managed by a "committee" who meet or discuss the rate annually. I've tried contacting them - but no luck...

 

If you're on CaRT waters it's an incredibly good deal; the extra cost is about a month's extra licence. If you're on EA waters it's about double the annual licence, so a rubbish deal.

 

It started as an annual licence because that's what EA licences are. When the TWO was enacted EA said they were going to change their licence model, but they've done **all about it saying "too complicated". Probably because they use SAP (trade joke...)

Edited September 14, 2013 by OldGoat

[FidoDido]

Another thing to note if your boat is bigger than 62ft.. Salters Lode can be a long wait over winter if you are longer than 62 ft, as you have to match the tide level with the level in Well Creek if you are. Its possible (we went through in January a couple of years ago), but last winter you would have been stuck from Oct until April!!

 

Also watch the Nene. It can rise VERY quickly. If you know there has been heavy rain, phone the EA chaps to see what the conditions are. They know their river. There arent many places to moor if things get brisk, and the landing stages for the locks are often only 20-30ft long, and usually right next to or opposite a wier. Sometimes even at 90 degrees to the lock! They are designed for little plastic cruisers, not 70ft narrowboats! Easier going down that up though - you wont have to reverse the locks on the way out.

 

Middle level locks require a different windlass. (they wind from the top, and have a long collar - they also work on the Nene).

 

Enjoy the trip - its lovely.