Anti-freeze/conditioner for J3

[NorthwichTrader]

Hi, I'm very close to running up our J3 and thought I may as well flood the cylinders, and wash the whole thing through, with a product I intend to use when the engine's in the boat.

Does anyone have any recommendations/concentrations/advice?

Many thanks,

Stuart

[steamraiser2]

If you are test running the engine out of the boat with a temporary cooling circuit it is a good idea to clean all the rust and scale out. A strong dose of central heating system flushing agent is good for this. You will probably be surprised by what comes out after a couple of hours running. Don't use brickwork cleaning acid or similarly agressive cleaners. Flush with clean water afterwards.

 

If there are signs of previous corrosion it is worth treating the system with Irontite. Running the engine with this in the water for a few hours puts a ceramic like coating on all the surfaces and will effectively plug any pinprick weepholes.The engine has to be left drained for at least 24 hrs after applying it to cure . It is far superior to the normal products you add to the water afterwards.

 

Use a good quality antifreeze, No need for anything exotic but do use one that is easy to obtain for future topping up. A stronger solution of around 40% is a good idea. Antifreeze does not become less effective over time but the corrosion inhibitors do. That is why Extended Life Coolants (ELC) are gaining in popularity. More expensive of course!

[NorthwichTrader]

Many thanks, steamraiser2, just the sort of advice I was looking for and, yes, will be running it up on a temporary circuit within the next week hopefully!

Best regards,

Stuart

[BEngo]

Never heard of Irontite. Standby Google inbound!

 

There are two sorts of antifreeze- with different glycols and they are sometimes not to be mixed with the other. Check what sort you get.

 

The anti-corrosion inhibitors in antifreeze can be topped up by adding a central heating corrosion inhibitor available at your local DIY shed.

 

N

[NorthwichTrader]

For Ben!

 

And thanks BEngo for that.

 

Is the central heating corrosion inhibitor compatible with both types of antifreeze? How often and when would you add it? Can you overdo it with ill effect?

 

 

[BEngo]

It seems to be- I have put B&Q's own-brand in both the blue type and the pink type without trouble. I sling some in every two years or so ( depending as much as anything on how much topping up has been needed.

 

Tidy looking J3. Posh brass core plates too. Double acting water pump? Unusual fuel pump- normally they are type with the feet at the base. What year was it made?

 

How do you turn the priming cocks on 1 & 2 cylinders?

 

 

Can't see what sort of plugs you have fitted but if they are still 18mm holes the Champion K97F is recommended. Longish reach triple electrode jobbys which don't soot up when running on starting mixture.

 

Don't forget the steady bar when you install it, unless it has the (very uncommon) wide feet.

 

N

[Ben2542]

Thanks Stuart for the picture of what looks like a lovely J3. Like BEngo I notice the petrol priming cocks, and if it's like mine two of the three priming cocks work one way, whilst the other is open/closed in the opposite way (if that makes sense)!

 

I'm interested in your comments BEngo regarding the steady bar ... do you think it essential if the engine's on the narrower feet?

 

Best wishes

 

Ben

[NorthwichTrader]

Thanks, N, for the info. and for your comments!

The engine is a '56, but I do know the fuel pump isn't its original issue.

I'll measure the feet, though it will be Phil Trotter fitting it, so I'm confident it'll be done right.

The fuel cocks need their bars refitted, and there is still more to do besides!

I wonder if you can help re the fuel pump? How would to connect it up to the timing gears, so it's injecting all the right time, how would you set it?

If you had time, I'd really appreciate a quick insight into how the whole injector process works, from timing gears to injector ports?

I've only ever tinkered with petrol engines until stripping this one down!

[steamraiser2]

Irontite is an American product and can sometimes be found on the net or Ebay US. Not cheap but pretty good.

[BEngo]

Thanks Stuart for the picture of what looks like a lovely J3. Like BEngo I notice the petrol priming cocks, and if it's like mine two of the three priming cocks work one way, whilst the other is open/closed in the opposite way (if that makes sense)!

 

I'm interested in your comments BEngo regarding the steady bar ... do you think it essential if the engine's on the narrower feet?

 

Best wishes

 

Ben

Yes. Having seen the rock on one fitted without a steady bar and the effect on the feet mounting holes in both the crankcase and the feet I would not fit a J without a steady. The holes wear large and oval, despite originally being fitted with very close tolerance bolts. The feet holes are not too bad to bush out, but getting the crankcase onto a milling or boring machine to make the holes round again and still in the right place for the feet is a dockyard job.

 

I think I have the first Kelvin Phil Trotter fitted, though he only bolted it down and provided the shaft etc. I put my own steady bar on later as part of the fit out and the rest of the installation.

 

Thanks, N, for the info. and for your comments!

The engine is a '56, but I do know the fuel pump isn't its original issue.

I'll measure the feet, though it will be Phil Trotter fitting it, so I'm confident it'll be done right.

The fuel cocks need their bars refitted, and there is still more to do besides!

I wonder if you can help re the fuel pump? How would to connect it up to the timing gears, so it's injecting all the right time, how would you set it?

If you had time, I'd really appreciate a quick insight into how the whole injector process works, from timing gears to injector ports?

I've only ever tinkered with petrol engines until stripping this one down!

 

The workings of the injector pump are relatively simple. The input shaft is turned by the timing gears at half engine speed ( like sparks/distributor for petrol). On that shaft are a cam for each cylinder spaced out according to the timing ( every 120 deg for a 3). Each cam operates a diesel pump which delivers the fuel to the injector. Once you have timed the first cylinder the rest will be properly timed because the cam sets the spacing. The clever bit is in the way the quantity of fuel at each injection is controlled. Each pump cylinder has a sleeve with a helical groove which can be rotated by a rack ( common to all the pumps and the thing that sticks out and is connected to the spring at the front and the governor at the back). The rotation of the sleeve controls the effective stroke of the pump. A picture here would be worth all my words and more, but I don't have a pump handy. There are loads of good pictures of how it works on the web, so it might be best to have a look for those. "CAV BPE Pump" might be a good search term.

 

The way to sort the timing out is called spill timing. If you Google it someone may have a video on youtube or similar- I've not tried.

 

The gears are all dot-marked like most petrol engines so you should have those right and the pump coupling has a key so each part only goes onto the drive the right way. There are timing and tdc marks on the flywheel. There isn't a corresponding pointer/fixed mark as you might expect on a BMC or Ford petrol engine, so a certain amount of judgement is required to decide whether the mark is actually in the right place at the very top of the flywheel. In my experience these marks need to be checked against reality before starting the timing process. I have seen 3 cylinder engines which have had 2-cyl flywheels fitted (they are the same apart from the timing marks) and the original 3-cyl flywheel has TDC and injection marks for all 3 cylinders- sort out the ones for your No1 and put some tippex or paint on them. You may need to take off a crankcase door to help here, but the hiss from the priming cock also helps.

 

Turn the engine over by hand and note which way everything turns in the normal direction. (I can never remember)

 

First check that you have the timing crudely correct- Bleed the fuel system all the way to the injectors (Lazy way is run it on petrol until fuel comes out of all 3 injector drains then stop it) Leave open the injector drains on No 2&3, close the drain on No 1. Turn the engine over by hand and check that the injector "creaks" ( This is a distinctive noise which may be obscured by the 'clack' from the impulse drive on the magneto- if so remove the impulse drive cover plate which will stop it clacking) about when the No1 injection timing mark is vertical. If not, the setting of the fuel pump Oldham coupling is wrong and you will need to turn it through either 90 degrees 180 degrees or 270 degrees and check again. You should be able to work out which way, but if not:

 

 

If it's wrong remove the governor, and loosen off the fuel pump, removing the injector pipes but leaving the main fuel inlet pipe connected. Set the rack fully forward and turn the pump by hand in the right direction until the No1 injector port pumps out a squirt of fuel. Don't turn it any more- it will want to go on turning due to the effect of the cams and springs inside. Set the engine with No 1 just after TDC and re-connect the fuel pump moving the flywheel a little if needed. Refit pump, governor and spring and check again as above.

 

Now to the precise setting. Set the engine to a bit before the injection mark for No 1. Clean the fuel pump exterior very carefully and avoid the possibility of any dirt at all getting into the pump or injector pipe. Remove the No 1 Injector pipe and the delivery valve holder it attaches to at the pump. Under the holder is the delivery valve and spring. Remove these carefully, with either clean fingers or, better, really clean tweezers. Put them into clean diesel and leave somewhere safe. Refit the delivery valve holder. You probably will find that diesel flows out of the hole- turn the flywheel gently in the right direction till it stops. This is the point at which injection starts- known as the spill point, hence spill timing. Gently rock the flywheel backwards and forwards until you have found the precise point at which diesel stops flowing. The flow rate slows down dramatically in the last few millimetres of flywheel rim movement so with a bit of practice you can get it really accurate. Check where the injection mark is. If it's at the very top of the flywheel it is right, miracle over. If not you need to use the adjustment in the pump coupling front half to get it right. There are two bolts which hold the adjustment. To advance the timing (ie the mark is past the top at the spill point) you need to ease off the bolts and rotate the pump side of the coupling in the direction of normal rotation with the engine bit still and if the mark is before the top then you need to rotate the pump side of the coupling against the direction of normal rotation with the engine bit still. Remember there are cams and springs inside the pump which will try to take charge of the pump at this point. Repeat the timing check and adjust again if needed.

 

 

 

When happy, refit the delivery valve, spring and holder, connect up the pipes and bleed through to the injectors. The engine should now run on diesel. You can check the injectors are working by closing one injector drain at a time with the engine running on petrol- it will emit (extra) clouds of smoke.

 

Once the engine is installed and has settled down, adjust the timing, using the pump coupling, and a tiny bit at a time, to reduce smoke to the minimum and get maximum power. White smoke usually means that advancing the timing is needed, knocking means a bit more retarded. Unlike a petrol distributor you have to stop the engine to adjust the timing.

 

Once all is finalised mark the right position of the coupling adjustment with paint or a scribed/punched mark. For belt as well as braces you could remove the coupling adjustment bolts one at a time and re-fit with Loctite or equivalent, but it's not essential.

 

Hope that helps. It's easier if you can find someone to show you how it's done the first time. Any engine with unit or multi-unit pumps will do because the principle is the same for them all. I don't think DPA pumps a la BMC are similar , but I've never timed one of them from scratch.

 

The magneto timing can also be 'interesting', but the Kelvin instruction book does describe how to do that. Don't forget to give the 'spare' sparks somewhere to go if you have a 6-cylinder magneto.

 

 

I can try again if I've not made myself clear!

N

PS. If that's a soft-soldered joint in the pipe from the fuel filter to the fuel pump it will be a BSS Fail. You need to either get it brazed or make a single piece one.

 

N

 

PPS- Have a look at http://www.sky-net.org.uk/kelvin/tech_info/cav/bpe_pump/ -it's the instruction manual which also tells you how it works.

N

N

Edited June 17, 2013 by BEngo

[NorthwichTrader]

Dear BEngo,

 

That is staggering, and truly humbling to find someone who will make such an effort for nothing in return, I thank you so much!

 

I do apologise, but I can offer this forum very little at the moment! I am, however, a big contributor to a major coin forum, and there I do give a lot of my time to others so, if it's any consolation, I am also doing my little bit to pass on the knowledge!

 

I one day hope to share my own narrowboat findings here, so that someone else might also feel supported...thank-you, once again!

 

Best regards,

 

Stuart

[rjasmith]

Also very many thanks from me for that fabulous description of timing a BPE pump. I'm sure mine is already set spot on by Andy and John up at Seaward Eng but you never know, one day I might have to do it myself.

 

BEngo's description will be yet another learned writing from CWDF that will just have to get printed and kept in my hard copy engine file! It will join one or two others, notably Sir Nibble's splendid description of the inner workings of the BS5 starter.

 

Richard

[NorthwichTrader]

Also very many thanks from me for that fabulous description of timing a BPE pump. I'm sure mine is already set spot on by Andy and John up at Seaward Eng but you never know, one day I might have to do it myself.

 

BEngo's description will be yet another learned writing from CWDF that will just have to get printed and kept in my hard copy engine file! It will join one or two others, notably Sir Nibble's splendid description of the inner workings of the BS5 starter.

 

Richard

Hear, hear, Richard!

[Proper Job]

Fantastic post BEngo

 

voted up by me

 

[NorthwichTrader]

OK, I've really got my head around all this now, and don't feel at all daunted.

 

However, one quick question in reference to BEngo's post:

 

He says..."The flow rate slows down dramatically in the last few millimetres of flywheel rim movement so with a bit of practice you can get it really accurate. Check where the injection mark is. If it's at the very top of the flywheel it is right..."

 

My question is: I understand the importance of the mm rotational precision of the flywheel re spill test, but HOW do you, within mm's, judge when the timing mark is at the top of the flywheel? I can turn the flywheel 5mm, and rock my head from side to side to assess, and judge it top. Equally, I can then move it the other way and think, 'damn that looks top too!'

 

How do you get the top at the top?

[BEngo]

It's at the top when YOU think it's at the top! It helps to look at it from the front- draw a short radial line across the flywheel from the injection mark ,(on some masking tape if you don't want to mark the paint) and get that line vertical- it's quite easy to see an off-vertical line if you can view it from the front, but you could always use a vertical spirit level if the engine is on the bank with the crankcase top level across. Remember the timing gear case top is not level!

 

 

The general imprecision (by modern standards) is also why the adjust it for minimum smoke, best power, least knocks bit has to be done after the engine is installed. Remember you are not dealing with a modern piece of super-precision engineering, but a 1930's piece of precision engineering. When the engine was designed a Thousandth was tight work, and some of the engine components are toleranced to half a Thousandth. The fuel injection pump and injection nozzle were selectively assembled and then made as non-interchangeable units. These days tolerances in microns are held reliably. The best timing will vary from engine to engine and does not have to be as accurate as is necessary to get a modern diesel to produce the power, economy and emisssions that are only achieved with electronic control.

 

N

Edited June 23, 2013 by BEngo

[NorthwichTrader]

Happy days! Thanks, BEngo!