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Visitor Moorings


Ray

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Well actually it isnt. The pic is taken looking from a dead end. In the left foreground is the offside of a lock entrance, so the river actually veers to the left as it comes towards where Matt was stood - you can't actually see the towpath as it is not even in the picture.

 

Here is picture from the towpath as the river leaves the lock...a bit snowy!

 

8395109210_6b13005a44_c.jpg

Untitled by articulator, on Flickr

For anyone who is interested, this is the area in question:

 

http://goo.gl/maps/7zfXd

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Sawbridgeworth the maltings are as i believe mostly rented apartments not particularly posh.my daughter lived there for 2 years and was told she was allowed to have a mooring in the marina.

Not aware of any residents complaints about boaters indeed they mostly liked to see the boats .Some people choose to live next to canals to enjoy the life and respect boaters as long as generators not run all night.

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Just received.

 

Apparently collators are at liberty to discuss responses, even on Internet forums, provided they don't disclose personal details of the respondent.

 

I'm wondering if every respondent had known this, it they would necessarily have been prepared to say some of what they have done(!)

 

The problem is even if the name and other details of an individual, company or association is fully redacted, it will be fully possible to guess who it is. Not too many hire boat companies with an interest in the area around Leighton/Linslade on the GU, for example!

 

 

Damian Kemp's latest note:

 

Hello all,

 

It has come to my attention that there are ‘confidentiality’ concerns among some of you. So, for the avoidance of doubt, where a respondent has supplied contact details it is solely for the purpose of clarifying any ambiguity in their response. Respondents have supplied their details expressly for this purpose. Personal contact details are not to shared, published or used in any other way.

 

Ultimately, each and every response will be put, fully redacted, in the public domain. With this in mind you are free to discuss, in public forums, the responses you’ve looked at but only if the respondent remains anonymous. In hindsight, I should have asked you to sign a confidentiality agreement and will do this for any future consultations.

 

If anyone is uncomfortable with these constraints then please delete all responses and confirm with me that you have done so.

 

In the meantime, thank you for your help.

Damian

 

Boating Consultations and Communications Manager

Canal & River Trust

01452 318027

07887 855306

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The problem is even if the name and other details of an individual, company or association is fully redacted, it will be fully possible to guess who it is. Not too many hire boat companies with an interest in the area around Leighton/Linslade on the GU...

 

That would possibly be a breach of DPA if it could be shown that personal info about a person could be inferred. Depends on how much is taken out.

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That would possibly be a breach of DPA if it could be shown that personal info about a person could be inferred. Depends on how much is taken out.

When CRT have issued other information, (say as part of a response to an FOI request), they have only redacted names, not everything that makes it possible to guess them.

 

It seems to be their intended intention to make all this consultation feedback available in a similar vein, and I'll be amazed if some of those in the know can't guess the source. How would you (say) redact a response from the Northampton Branch of the IWA - by the time it was made impossible to see it was them, maybe not a lot would remain?

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When CRT have issued other information, (say as part of a response to an FOI request), they have only redacted names, not everything that makes it possible to guess them.

 

It seems to be their intended intention to make all this consultation feedback available in a similar vein, and I'll be amazed if some of those in the know can't guess the source. How would you (say) redact a response from the Northampton Branch of the IWA - by the time it was made impossible to see it was them, maybe not a lot would remain?

The DPA covers the control of information about a living individual not a company or other entity.

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Why visitor moorings? First don't assume all waterways are the same and all boaters are the same. When cruising the Oxford for instance miles of bank is built up with armco and rings are all over the place. On the K&A the banks are rarely built up and there are few places where you can get close to the bank, and where you can chances are someone lives there. I am perfectly capable of launching myself from the roof rope in hand to arrive in the middle of the nettles 10 ft away to secure the boat, and trotting across the boarding plank. Not everybody is. Having secured the boat there is then the issue of getting small children across the plank and anything else that needs to come ashore. The fact is that on the K&A at least if you are to follow the advice to step ashore, not jump ashore it's VMs or keep cruising like some kind of flying dutchman. Without them anyone not sufficiently spry to make that leap is stuffed. If I could step ashore alongside the towpath then I wouldn't give a hoot.

  • Greenie 1
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Without an example to go through its hard to say. It's surprising how redactions can work but there is quite a skill in it. Not one I've got. In answer to the question about a club, it would still be technically possible to breach the DPA but it's unlikely since no personal information about an individual is likely to be made available. I should have been more specific on my previous post. It is possibly a breach, but unlikely. I am far from an expert on it. I teach the general parts as part of another course but the ins and outs of a legal challenge would be, like any other, in the fine detail of exactly what has or hasn't happened in each individual case.

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I actually think it is a bit rich for CRT to say that "with hindsight" they should have got those that responses were being farmed out to to sign a confidentiality agreement.

 

Whilst also having little knowledge on the data protection topic, that seems to have been a significant blunder.

 

Also if responses are all going to be published, (albeit to some degree redacted), it might have been fair to tell peope retuning responses that this was the case.

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Why visitor moorings? First don't assume all waterways are the same and all boaters are the same. When cruising the Oxford for instance miles of bank is built up with armco and rings are all over the place. On the K&A the banks are rarely built up and there are few places where you can get close to the bank, and where you can chances are someone lives there. I am perfectly capable of launching myself from the roof rope in hand to arrive in the middle of the nettles 10 ft away to secure the boat, and trotting across the boarding plank. Not everybody is. Having secured the boat there is then the issue of getting small children across the plank and anything else that needs to come ashore. The fact is that on the K&A at least if you are to follow the advice to step ashore, not jump ashore it's VMs or keep cruising like some kind of flying dutchman. Without them anyone not sufficiently spry to make that leap is stuffed. If I could step ashore alongside the towpath then I wouldn't give a hoot.

 

What does your boat draw at the bow? I find it difficult to believe that there are many places you can't get the bow to within stepping distance of the bank. Then take the gangplank with you, draw the stern in and use the gangplank to get back onto the boat.

 

If you need some lessons, I'll be happy to come out with and show you how it's done.

 

If you are having problems carrying stuff, or children across your plank then I respectfully suggest that boating might be a touch too strenuous for you and you should consider a lighter hobby, basket weaving perhaps, or making sculpture from recycled materials.

 

I do, of course, use visitor mooring with good depth - and you'll know that, for instance, not all Bradford visitor moorings have such - when I am taking out persons of an eldery or infirm nature. Should you come boating with me would you like me to consider you one of these?

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The DPA covers the control of information about a living individual not a company or other entity.

So could we post replies from an IWA branch or a hire boat company without any worries, provided there are no names in there?

 

I personally don't think we should, but clearly there are people looking at this who probably currently have access to such replies.

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The more I hear about this consultation the more it sounds like its being made up as they go along....

 

I have participated, partiallyso I can't complain that I didn't try and make my voice heard when CRT ignore people's views. (cynic)

 

WRT mooring on none designated visitor mooring sites, aside from the fact that anyone that draws more than 2 ft has very little chance. On the Oxford some areas that were not visitor mooring sites "the rough" that are being made into no mooring sites. These sites are used a lot.

 

I need to re read the consultation but I wonder how many other rough unrestricted sites are going to be lost to no mooring - that's going to put more pressure onto the designated visitor moorings.

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I actually think it is a bit rich for CRT to say that "with hindsight" they should have got those that responses were being farmed out to to sign a confidentiality agreement.

 

Whilst also having little knowledge on the data protection topic, that seems to have been a significant blunder.

 

Also if responses are all going to be published, (albeit to some degree redacted), it might have been fair to tell peope retuning responses that this was the case.

I do think it is naive of CRT not to have had some kind of confidentiality instruction and agreement with the people processing the consultation returns. However it is far from certain to be a DPA issue. From what I have seen I doubt it is but we would need some answers to some very big "Ifs" to be sure.

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If you are having problems carrying stuff, or children across your plank then I respectfully suggest that boating might be a touch too strenuous for you and you should consider a lighter hobby, basket weaving perhaps, or making sculpture from recycled materials.

Trying to see both sides of the argument, Chris, large dogs, for example, are a common feature on many boats, and not all can and/or will walk planks or jump big gaps. I'd not fancy trying to carry a large German Shepherd to the shore over a gangplank.

 

Or should people not boat with large dogs, unless they can be demonstrated as capable of mounting and crossing an often wobbly plank?

 

We moored several places last year where when we did get a plank out it was a significant issue even for humans, because it wsa often impossible not to have it on a ridiculous slope, or to limit boat movement, (even with springs), to the point it didn't end up in the cut.

 

Generally I agree people should be prepared to be far less restrictive on where they tie up, but, if, for example as happened several times last year I arrive in (say) Ansty, and all the VMs are full, I'd love a lesson on quite what it is possible to do then, without creating a situation that is quite hazardous, (which we did, and I very nearly went in!).

 

Not trying to argue here, just to point out that between the two extremes of "I'll only tie up in deep water, against piling, and where there are rings or bollards" and "I'll stop anywhere, if the plank will reach", there is actually a more reasoned discussion to be had.

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So could we post replies from an IWA branch or a hire boat company without any worries, provided there are no names in there?

 

I personally don't think we should, but clearly there are people looking at this who probably currently have access to such replies.

My previous post is correct. Read the principles of the act.

 

On the whole to be safe I would say publish nothing without permission from CRT. However, the act is quite clear it is about identifying/processing data about living individuals nothing more or less.

 

The person who is handling the data is not the "Data Controller" in terms of the act therefore they should only do what they have been asked by the controller nothing more. It is not up to these people to decide what to publish.

 

If by publishing something damaging (or in a damaging way) to an organisation you might find yourself in trouble via a different means but not the DPA.

Edited by churchward
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My previous post is correct. Read the principles of the act.

 

On the whole to be safe I would say publish nothing without permission from CRT. However, the act is quite clear it is about identifying/processing data about living individuals nothing more or less.

 

The person who is handling the data is not the "Data Controller" in terms of the act therefore they should only do what they have been asked by the controller nothing more. It is not up to these people to decide what to publish.

 

If by publishing something damaging (or in a damaging way) to an organisation you might find yourself in trouble via a different means but not the DPA.

 

Bang on. I've been answering from the point of view of what CaRT may do. I also think the very least they should have done is made respondents aware that the findings may be published, in whatever format. Although this may seem obvious, it might not be clear to everyone and it's just bad practice not to cover all the bases.

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Trying to see both sides of the argument, Chris, large dogs, for example, are a common feature on many boats, and not all can and/or will walk planks or jump big gaps. I'd not fancy trying to carry a large German Shepherd to the shore over a gangplank.

 

Taking the mick out of a hamster aside, I do notice a tendency on these threads to assume that visitor moorings are the main place to tie up. This is a step change from my boating experience over what I can now refer to as several decades. I remember well the first time I tried to moor on a canal and being very surprised I couldn't come alongside until another boater came along and helped and explained. At that time the whole of the navigable k and a was like that, that is quite literally everywhere with the exception of wharves. Grand union boaters are spoilt by having piling with depths stamped into them.

 

Again and again in these discussions I get the impression that people are not prepared to put themselves out at all. Surely it doesn't take much intelligence to realise that this puts even more pressure on a scarce supply of so-called visitor moorings. Or do you suggest CRT should profile the towpath side so that anyone can get in anywhere as has happened on the honeypot k and a where rarely are gangplanks used?

 

I used to feel more secure with only my bow within reach of the bank. It stopped people jumping on the boat.

 

As for your dog. If you want to take a dog boating then you need to train it to use a gangplank. All boatie dogs I know will do this, many will happily use balance beams. Jack Russells are famous for trotting up and down top planks though I accept this may not be easy for a larger dog.

 

This culture of wanting everything provided in an 'ideal' manner - 1. Is unaffordable and 2. Is not the kind of over-management I want.

 

I can see a need for deep water moorings for occasional users and hirers but anyone serious about their boating should learn to use a gangplank.

 

Nick Norman's previous post about not wanting to adjust his ropes as his boat pulls in - as they will do on any soft bottom is simply risible. but I expected more from Gerry, although he will happily cut off his nose to make a contrary argument.

Edited by Chris Pink
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BOO! Like I said Chris, I can do this no bother. I find children sometimes frightened of the boarding plank and it's a hassle shifting anything heavy and awkward. The point is that whilst I can and do make that spiderman leap not many people even of my age can. Your point about using the bow is well taken but I find that by the time I have got onto the roof, collected a centre line, walked the length of the boat. got off the roof again and climbed onto the bow I am invariably even further away than if I'd just got on with it from the stern, certainly it's not a step ashore unless you have legs like a giraffe. This doesn't need to be a me vs you issue, you know and I know that this is perfectly handlable IF YOU ARE FIT AND REASONABLY AGILE. If not then you are stuffed until you find a visitor mooring.

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BOO! Like I said Chris, I can do this no bother. I find children sometimes frightened of the boarding plank and it's a hassle shifting anything heavy and awkward. The point is that whilst I can and do make that spiderman leap not many people even of my age can. Your point about using the bow is well taken but I find that by the time I have got onto the roof, collected a centre line, walked the length of the boat. got off the roof again and climbed onto the bow I am invariably even further away than if I'd just got on with it from the stern, certainly it's not a step ashore unless you have legs like a giraffe. This doesn't need to be a me vs you issue, you know and I know that this is perfectly handlable IF YOU ARE FIT AND REASONABLY AGILE. If not then you are stuffed until you find a visitor mooring.

 

maybe you need to look at how you position your centre rop. I have 2 centre ropes so that I am never far away from one or the other

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BOO! Like I said Chris, I can do this no bother. I find children sometimes frightened of the boarding plank and it's a hassle shifting anything heavy and awkward. The point is that whilst I can and do make that spiderman leap not many people even of my age can. Your point about using the bow is well taken but I find that by the time I have got onto the roof, collected a centre line, walked the length of the boat. got off the roof again and climbed onto the bow I am invariably even further away than if I'd just got on with it from the stern, certainly it's not a step ashore unless you have legs like a giraffe. This doesn't need to be a me vs you issue, you know and I know that this is perfectly handlable IF YOU ARE FIT AND REASONABLY AGILE. If not then you are stuffed until you find a visitor mooring.

 

Strange how I manage it then being neither fit nor agile. If you take the centre rope in such a situation rather than the item of more use, a gangplank as even Spider-Man is going to have more trouble getting back inboard, then I still feel you need tuition in boating on a canal with the profile of the k and a. Though it does explain how you make so many curmudgeonly comments about people who reach your favourite, and rare, deep water wharves before you.

 

Most children I've met enjoy gangplanks as they more resemble adventure playgrounds. Perhaps you also know children who are not very suited to outdoor activities.

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Most children I've met enjoy gangplanks as they more resemble adventure playgrounds. Perhaps you also know children who are not very suited to outdoor activities.

So that's me screwed then, it's my fault for having the wrong kind of children.

 

maybe you need to look at how you position your centre rop. I have 2 centre ropes so that I am never far away from one or the other

Yes, I have two as well, one at each side both situated where I can grab either one from the steering position.

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Having a full length ex working boat I don't expect to find a space at a VM in the high season but in 4 months cruising last year only once did we get the gang plank out when we picked up something round the prop just before Newbold tunnel. Even managed to get the bow in the middle of nowhere on the Ashby even if the stern as 10' out in the middle of the cut. I prefer to moor away from VM's when we can. Our German shepherd doesn't like the gangplank.

 

Seperately much though I would like to know I think boaters have a right to expect confidentiality in their responses to the consultation.

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