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A PICTURE WITH A FEW QUESTIONS


Laurence Hogg

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I have posted this for ideas about what is going on, the height of the mast, where you think it may be. Its is an intriguiging picture which we know some details of but there are a lot of interesting aspects. The boat names are not know (and they dont begin with a "T" Mike)

 

Let the ideas flow:

 

gallery_5000_522_211994.jpg

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Isn't that the same photo that's published in the book "Victorian and Edwardian canals from old photographs" photo No 47. Before the bridge in this picture and after the bridge in your picture Laurence.

 

Darren

Darren, I do not have that book at present it has gone awl so I cannot confirm. the photo I scanned was an original from the Ike Argent collection.

Edited by Laurence Hogg
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You may be right Darren. Looks like the same pair of boats to me. Planks, tarps, crews hats, and that mast are the same. The books credit states on the Grand Junction - though more like the Soar, and they're being flushed along from the lock behind them.

 

Derek

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Hasn't that picture been discussed on here before?

Consensus seemed to be it was the Thames?

 

Tim

 

Tim, It is the upper Thames acording to the notation which was on the picture but not sure of the location, its the mast that I find unusual in the height. It was posted previously.

Edited by Laurence Hogg
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That person isn't pushing off with a boat hook, It is far too big a cross section to be a shaft. must be 6 or 8 inches across. And would you shaft from on top of the load, and some way back from the bow? wouldn't you stand on the foredeck and shaft from there? There are top planks at the back of the hold, but not where the "mast" is. The side sheets are not tied up where the "mast" is either. Is this to make room for a sail? There appears to be two guy lines or rigging (stays) going to the top of the mast. There seems to be a horizontal bar or something running from a few feet up the high mast towards the Normal mast on the other boat (a boom?), Is the person in front of the mast handling part of the rigging of a sail? Again maybe a boom.

Edited by antarmike
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Looks like typical park land. The trees are ornamental, and protected from grazing. (a deer park? the Old deer park Richmond? Port meadow Oxford? Mill Meadows? Dropmore Park?) You would not have trees like this in open farm land, used purely for grazing cattle. There appears to be a walker or group of walkers on the edge of the bank ( by the fence) suggesting this is some place with public access or where the public may stroll. There is a even a Lombardy Poplar! where is there such parkland? I can't think of such a place on the Soar today?

Edited by antarmike
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seen this picture before somewhere and I seem to recall it was said to be isleworth (london apprentice would be behind the trees top left hand side of picture.) being tidal at this point would explain the higher bank and the grounding of the boats.

Edited by hamsterfan
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I have posted this for ideas about what is going on, the height of the mast, where you think it may be. Its is an intriguiging picture which we know some details of but there are a lot of interesting aspects. The boat names are not know (and they dont begin with a "T" Mike)

 

Let the ideas flow:

 

gallery_5000_522_211994.jpg

 

Am I missing something or am I the only one that thinks that this is early bad 'Photoshopping'. The river bank and the boats are completely out of proportion.

 

Tim

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What I believe is the same pair of boats from D.D. Gladwins Victorian and Edwardian canals from Old Photographs.

Image No. 47. This is credited with "A smart pair working up the Grand Junction Canal. Unusual to see shafting in progress - also the mast".

 

PayslipDec2012265Small_zpsfe24f223.jpg

 

It looks more like the Soar to me, but I'm not familiar enough with the Soar to suggest where it may have been. This is taken from a bridge, and likely the same as is shown in Laurence's image from Ike's collection. Here the mast has been unshipped and set at an angle to clear the bridge. The lock in the background has top paddles drawn in what appears to be an attempt to flush the boat along. Is that a weir stream to the right? Maybe not.

 

The crew member with the 'shaft' in Laurence's image may have a length of timber from the cargo, or one of the planks pushing off. The line from the horse is fairly taught, and attached to where the luby would be - not the top of the mast which is held in place with halyards of a sort. There is water flow from the 'weir stream' and open lock sluices from behind and someone on the top gates. Maybe a drought year, they're scraping the bottom at a guess. Why such a tall mast is not known, though sail might be one reason visibility to oncoming craft may be another - it's painted bright enough.

 

Another point is that the gate for the horse is being held open. Such gates as were common on the Trent were of self closing type, so another possible location. Not sure if that might have been a Trent lock though. Did they have same on the Soar?

 

Edited to add:

 

This is clearly not a canal as the 'towing path' is obscure. There is a mature growth on the left in Gladwins shot precluding use of a towing line, and then there's the bridge to negotiate so the horse would have been reconnected after passing the bridge, which is why we see no line in with boats on-coming. [i take that back, there may be a line attached]

 

Odd looking piece of kit on the bow of the right hand boat. Firewood fished out?

 

PS Can the River Wey be ruled out?

Edited by Derek R.
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Towing with a tall mast was usual for rivers where the banks are considerably higher than the water level. When sailing vessels were towed on rivers, they would often be towed from higher up the mast as it kept the line clear of bushes and the like, and the same towing position would be used on canals to keep the line clear of sailing gear. Note the gate in the field fence which is probably for the boat horse, so the towing line would need to be kept high to clear the fence. The actual force need to move a boat is not that great once in motion, and this would not cause the boat to heel over to any great extent - the pull is not particularly sideways. The second boat would also act as a stabiliser.

 

On the second photo, could the wood on the bow be a bit like that used when connecting trains of boats on fenland waterways?

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But if towing like what you say was usual then wouldn't they have something a bit less Rudimentary than what we see here, Especially with the flow that's on the rivers.

 

Darren

The masts in both pictures look to have been made specifically for the job and have been kept as simple as possible, particularly as they would not have been needed that often so would have to be stored. Perhaps they were kept by the lock keeper responsible for the connection between river and canal. The L&LC kept the towing ropes and lights needed for canal boats working onto the Mersey at the lock house at Stanley Locks. As to flow, boatmen in unpowered craft would be much more careful about working onto flowing water than those more recently who had powered craft. Time was less of a problem then.

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I could believe Boxmoor of image No.47, the Gade would be coming in from the right at right angles to the navigation and out of shot. But I doubt if the vegetation would have been allowed to exist at the waters edge where the towpath would be on the left - and where is that Grand Junction towpath? Other than that, the layout at Boxmoor would fit well, though I think there should be a house beside the lock. There could be of course, as the image and foilage might hide same.

 

It seems far too much of a coincidence that these two images would have been in different parts of the network when the boats were loaded and appear so similar. The image Laurence has shown has a navigation that bends just like that below Two Waters Way bridge below Boxmoor lock, but the lack of engineered towpath, the weir opposite 'Rose's' wharf and the high eroded bank? That does not match with Boxmoor. Nor would there be any necessity for a tall mast, which ought to be pointed out - is being pulled from at the normal luby height - not the top or anywhere near it.

 

There is an anomaly in where some lines end too. In Laurence's image, a line runs from the cabin top, along the top plank, down the sheeted load from where it curves gracefully upwards and 'through' the head of the chap on the front - then disappears. The line from the bank also looks artificially thick, though if hauling a pair along shallow waters, perhaps it's true.

 

Are you having us on Laurence? Is this indeed a photo collage to wind everyone up?

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The well-known illustration of the Duke of Bridgewater below shows several sailing barges, all being towed from the top of their masts. It is easy to suggest artist's license, but there certainly were sailing barges working on the L&L and Bridgewater canals, and I have just had an article published on the subject in Topsail, the journal of the Society for Sailing Barge Research. There are certainly some benefits in towing from higher up a mast, but there are also problems. As with all such 'skilled' operations, each boatman would have their own solution. There certainly seem to have been extended masts on the Thames, Soar and Trent, which would suggest that they could have been used elsewhere, depending upon local conditions.

 

8289956529_9b0ec86e55_b.jpg

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Surely the height of the pulling point is more to do with keeping a taught towing line from tangling with the halyards and stays of any sailing craft than gaining any advantage or otherwise of clearing waterside obstructions, most of which would not have been permitted to exist where traffic was frequent? To my knowledge, there was never any such consideration to towing height at the horses end! Any such encumbrance would have had the effect of pulling the horse off balance, just as a narrow boat would have had its balance compromised, though minimised through being lashed together. Trent and Thames 'towing paths' were indeed different from canals of course, in as much as they were riparian owned in many places, hence fences and gates.

 

In an earlier post Mr. Hogg states: - "Tim, It is the upper Thames acording to the notation which was on the picture but not sure of the location, its the mast that I find unusual in the height. It was posted previously. "

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I could believe Boxmoor of image No.47, the Gade would be coming in from the right at right angles to the navigation and out of shot. But I doubt if the vegetation would have been allowed to exist at the waters edge where the towpath would be on the left - and where is that Grand Junction towpath? Other than that, the layout at Boxmoor would fit well, though I think there should be a house beside the lock. There could be of course, as the image and foilage might hide same.

 

It seems far too much of a coincidence that these two images would have been in different parts of the network when the boats were loaded and appear so similar. The image Laurence has shown has a navigation that bends just like that below Two Waters Way bridge below Boxmoor lock, but the lack of engineered towpath, the weir opposite 'Rose's' wharf and the high eroded bank? That does not match with Boxmoor. Nor would there be any necessity for a tall mast, which ought to be pointed out - is being pulled from at the normal luby height - not the top or anywhere near it.

 

There is an anomaly in where some lines end too. In Laurence's image, a line runs from the cabin top, along the top plank, down the sheeted load from where it curves gracefully upwards and 'through' the head of the chap on the front - then disappears. The line from the bank also looks artificially thick, though if hauling a pair along shallow waters, perhaps it's true.

 

Are you having us on Laurence? Is this indeed a photo collage to wind everyone up?

No Derek this is not a wind up, it is not a photo collage but a genuine old print found in Ike's collection, there is just one notation on it saying "upper Thames" which I dont think is Ike's handwriting. The Gladwin book mentioned is full of errors from my memory of it so I wouldnt be convinced by the caption applied there.

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