Lousy Boat Builders

[Billypownall]

I really enjoy these forums and get a lot of useful information from then. I would like to think also that my postings have helped other boaters one way or another. I feel however that it is a great shame we cannot apparently publish the names of those companies that are letting us down or indeed ripping us off. As one who is totally dissatisfied with my boatbuilder I think these people should be named and shamed to protect others from their antics. I was warned off this boatbuilder from someone who had previously had a boat built by them. Even then I chose to believe the builder's story rarther than the buyer which was a grave mistake.It really galls me to read fancy adverts. which lead people as gulleable as me to trust a company that is not to be trusted.

[davidandheather]

Well if we cannot name the bad ones why not name all the good builders out there should soon beable to work it out from that.

I will make a start there built our boat

D and J Narrowboats formally of Dedale Wharf now at Crick Wharf

husband and wife team where the customer always comes first

you will not find a better craftsman than David or a better business administrator than Jackie

you may have to wait a while for a build slot.

www.djnarrowboats.co.uk

David

[blackrose]

I really enjoy these forums and get a lot of useful information from then. I would like to think also that my postings have helped other boaters one way or another. I feel however that it is a great shame we cannot apparently publish the names of those companies that are letting us down or indeed ripping us off. As one who is totally dissatisfied with my boatbuilder I think these people should be named and shamed to protect others from their antics. I was warned off this boatbuilder from someone who had previously had a boat built by them. Even then I chose to believe the builder's story rarther than the buyer which was a grave mistake.It really galls me to read fancy adverts. which lead people as gulleable as me to trust a company that is not to be trusted.

 

Surely the names of dodgy companies can be divulged via a personal message to anyone who's interested.

[Billypownall]

Well if we cannot name the bad ones why not name all the good builders out there should soon beable to work it out from that.

I will make a start there built our boat

D and J Narrowboats formally of Dedale Wharf now at Crick Wharf

husband and wife team where the customer always comes first

you will not find a better craftsman than David or a better business administrator than Jackie

you may have to wait a while for a build slot.

www.djnarrowboats.co.uk

David

I entirely agree with you davidandheather indeed it is absolutely vital we know those builders who as you say look after their customers. I am sure there are many more of them than the others but it's very hard to sort the wheat from the chaff. We simply fell for the gift of the gab and missed out on someone like D. & G.unfortunately. However once bitten twice shy and we will shortly order a new boat and we will really do our researches this time.

[david and julie]

This really needs to be on a PM basis.

 

There are good and bad boatbuilders just as there are good and bad customers too.

 

Some buyers change their mind on an almost daily basis during a build and then blame the builder for delays or price increases.

 

If anyone is thinking of using a particular builder say the name, then if someone has issues or comments they will no doubt PM you.

 

Lists of names could be seen as adverts or even worse there may be unjustified vendetta's.

 

Many problems (like any trade) are because people don't have a proper written specification of what they want and what they are getting.

 

Many builders are good tradesmen but poor administrators.

Edited August 13, 2006 by david and julie

[minerva]

The trouble is ..

 

These glossy ads in the glossy canal mags capture the imaginations of newbie people who see the ads and then buy from someone who may not match up to their glossy promisses....as we all know, who have been around on the canal scene for a few years.

 

For those of us who know better, know the score by now, but its the people new to the canal, isn't it? thats sucked in.....these people need protecting.

 

Having said that, how many times this year have we seen companies go under who have been around for quite a long time, and who "seemed" trustworthy? Hell, I know the score only too well, I nearly ended up as another statistic in the Heron debacle !... its not always so easy to spot the wrong uns.. is it?

 

 

[ChrisPy]

 

There are good and bad boatbuilders just as there are good and bad customers too.

 

Some buyers change their mind on an almost daily basis during a build and then blame the builder for delays or price increases.

 

 

Many builders are good tradesmen but poor administrators.

I agree entirely. Same in the house building industry. We always hear about builders from hell. Well, I've had my fair share of builders in and around the house and have specified exactly what I want, have not changed my mind, have paid them on time and have never had a problem that couldn't be resolved through senisble discussion. Most problems arise when the customer doesn't really know what he wants and the customer and builder fail to communicate properly, for whatever reason.

[jollyroger]

Well if we cannot name the bad ones why not name all the good builders out there should soon beable to work it out from that.

I will make a start there built our boat

D and J Narrowboats formally of Dedale Wharf now at Crick Wharf

husband and wife team where the customer always comes first

you will not find a better craftsman than David or a better business administrator than Jackie

you may have to wait a while for a build slot.

www.djnarrowboats.co.uk

David

We often hear about poor after sales service in this Forum, so I will tell you about mine.

We took delivery of "The Jolly Roger" in May last year, we were taking it back to the marina, on the second day the gearbox got jammed in reverse as we were in Keepers Lock.

We contacted the boatbuilder, who had an engineer out within an hour, he got it going, But as we were manouvering in the marina it failed again. So on the phone again.

This time they said they would contact the gearbox manufacturer who would contact me, 30 minutes later their engineer rang, we arranged a date, he came to the marina, fitted a new gearbox. job done.

We noticed a few weeks ago that there was a problem with the paintwork, the boat was 14 mths old, so we rung the builder to explain the problem, he said to drop it in and he would sort it. I asked if he wanted to see it first, he said no need. We left it with him for 2 weeks, picked it up last week, perfect, looked as good as new.

As with anything new you can have problems, but it is the way they are handled that is important. In my case it was dealt with in a professional way.

So many thanks to JD at Gailey

[Billypownall]

I agree entirely. Same in the house building industry. We always hear about builders from hell. Well, I've had my fair share of builders in and around the house and have specified exactly what I want, have not changed my mind, have paid them on time and have never had a problem that couldn't be resolved through senisble discussion. Most problems arise when the customer doesn't really know what he wants and the customer and builder fail to communicate properly, for whatever reason.

I am afraid Chris that I think you are wrong. Most customers do indeed know what they want.We certainly did and as far as I remember nothing whatsoever was changed. The problems we have had have been down to faulty equipment and bad workmanship by the builder. Only once has one of their men been back to the boat and that was within days as the legs on the saloon table were too short to get your knees under it. In spite of delivery being 8 months late the paint was still wet. No weld spatter had been removed and indeed under the gunnels of the boat were not and still are not painted at all. The boat arrived without any toilet and bathroom fittings or mirror at all and although they were not promised I have to say they were expected and how many builders do not fit them?The fueltank filler surround was loose and had no gasket under it so water got into the diesel tank causing all sorts of filter and diesel bug probems.The drain for the fuel tank is 2" above the bottom of the tank compounding the problem.When the boat was ordered I was told that the tank had a bottom drain which is of course is very necessary.A drain 2" above the bottom is worse than usless.The wrong propellor was fitted and although a suitable propellor was supplied it cost us £280 to have it fitted. The bowthruster failed twice and no help with this was forthcoming. Holes which we have had fitted to ventilate it's compartment seems to have cured this problem although at our expense.The pick up for the Mikuni Heating is halfway down the diesel tank so is unusable unless there is over 20 gallons in the tank. The oak tongued and grooved wood panals on the cabin sides are falling off and look a right mess .Again we have spent hours trying to fix them and have requested help from the builder with no response as I think it is too big a job for us. The kitchen sink hardly drains as the discharge hole through he hull is too high (or the sink is too low)All external screws fixing the vents,houdini hatch,pump out fittings etc have gone rusty and stained the paintwork.The immersion heater thermostat failed the water in the tank boiled which split the plastic cold water feed tom the tank with water everywhere of course.The 3 bar pressure release valve did not work. It maybe should been 2 bar with only a 25 psi water pump. No help from the builder with these poblems.They suggested ringing their suppliers who said when we did this that they did not supply this builder so could not help.The batteries on the boat are not secured,will it pass it's safety certificate like this? When ordering the boat were were told that 2 alternators would be fitted. We were on delivery told that a larger one was fitted instead.We accepted this but it proved inadequate and we have had to have a second one fitted.The floor boards on the boat creaked badly and we have spent hours trying to stop this. The fridge was fitted with the shelves all together.The fridge door would not open far enough for these to be repositioned. The floor covering had been fitted up to the fridge after the fridge was fitted so it ws impossible to pull the fridge out. It took several hours to cure this problem.The bow thruster battery failed and the builder simply referred us to his supplier who would not fit a new one for us but did supply one which we had to fetch and fit.I now have to have a double hernia operation on the 12thSeptember and I am not kidding. The Sterling Combi unit was faulty and again the builder simply referred us to Sterling who fitted a separate new 3000 watt invertor and 50 amp charger.The battery charger later failed and although Sterling sent a new one we had to have it fitted and stand the postage charges. The only decent service we have had has been by Access Marine the Vetus Agent who had been very helpful and who I would certainly recommend.As for the builder well he has been hardly any help at all.In fact he just does not want to know. All I wonder how many more dissatisfied customers he has and how many more there are going to be. Perhaps I am the only one but I doubt it. Anyone buying a new boat should I think contact as many customers of the potential builder as possible.I am sure their recommendations or otherwise are the best guide.We were just too gullible I think.

[minerva]

easier said than done(re contacting other customers)...

 

[Maffi]

The answer to these problems are simple!

 

"Soyouwannabuyaboat.com"

 

A simple free web site containing pages of good and bad experiences which will include builders names.

 

It seems a logical progression. We already have Jim Shead with his long list of boat. And various sites containing containing lists of boaters blogs. There are many sites that tell how wonderful boating is but none that reall highlight the down side.

 

It would be a case of collecting together all the comments good and bad about boats and their builders, suppliers etc in an easy searchable format. Every complaint on the site would need to be the owners responsibility for legal reasons but the overall idea would be that complaints are made, the builder would have an opportunity to respond and both sides represented in all cases.

 

One or more of a team of interested parties in different part of the country to vet complaints and those of us that are of an enquiring mind to contact builders/suppliers for their response to specific complaints prior to going on line.

 

It could also include a "This is what you are letting your self in for" section written by experienced boaters to cover costs, moorings etc. and "What to look out for in a secondhand boat."

 

If an idea like this takes off it could change the face of boat building. Obviously it would need the co-operation of as many boaters and builders, suppliers as possible, but is doable. Forums cover a lot of this but have their hands tied.

 

Such a site would need to be advertised around the cut with a simple business card or flyer that could be passed on to all and sundry. Boaters could print them off on their PC hand them to other boaters and to any enquiring 'future' boaters that they meet.

 

Anyone interested in such a venture PM me with good ideas, web building skills, organisinging skills, legal background, any offers of help accepted etc.

Edited August 15, 2006 by Maffi

[charles123]

This a shocking story from Billy, you have my sympathy. Some of the things you mention are material faults that can happen to anyone such as a charger failure but they are in the minority. Since we continue to be reluctant on the forum to name names the learnings from such an account are limited.

To me the biggest learning is buyer beware, that is chose your builder carefully, for example do you really want to buy a narrowboat from Morrocco? think about it. Many builders are reputable with excellent reputations that would have put these faults right or never built the boat that way to get into the problem in the first place. So why do buyers purchase their boats from unknown builders? the magazines are filled with new names, what experience do they have at building?. So the onus belongs to the buyer as well as the fault of the builder. Billy does not name his builder so I could be a million miles out but it looks to me that this is not a builder of many years standing. You can buy a boat for say £65k from a builder that has being going for 10 years and you can buy a boat from a builder that has been going for 1 yr, for the same price, they both look alike from the photos, I know which I would chose.

 

Charles

[happychap]

The answer to these problems are simple!

 

"Soyouwannabuyaboat.com"

 

A simple free web site containing pages of good and bad experiences which will include builders names.

 

It seems a logical progression. We already have Jim Shead with his long list of boat. And various sites containing containing lists of boaters blogs. There are many sites that tell how wonderful boating is but none that reall highlight the down side.

 

It would be a case of collecting together all the comments good and bad about boats and their builders, suppliers etc in an easy searchable format. Every complaint on the site would need to be the owners responsibility for legal reasons but the overall idea would be that complaints are made, the builder would have an opportunity to respond and both sides represented in all cases.

 

One or more of a team of interested parties in different part of the country to vet complaints and those of us that are of an enquiring mind to contact builders/suppliers for their response to specific complaints prior to going on line.

 

It could also include a "This is what you are letting your self in for" section written by experienced boaters to cover costs, moorings etc. and "What to look out for in a secondhand boat."

 

If an idea like this takes off it could change the face of boat building. Obviously it would need the co-operation of as many boaters and builders, suppliers as possible, but is doable. Forums cover a lot of this but have their hands tied.

 

Such a site would need to be advertised around the cut with a simple business card or flyer that could be passed on to all and sundry. Boaters could print them off on their PC hand them to other boaters and to any enquiring 'future' boaters that they meet.

 

Anyone interested in such a venture PM me with good ideas, web building skills, organisinging skills, legal background, any offers of help accepted etc.

 

Without wishing to pour cold water over a well intentioned idea, I suspect you may find that despite 'disclaimers' to the contrary, the site (and it's owners) would fall foul of allowing 'unsubstantiated' negative comments about a builder that will undoubtably affect his business standing. I recall some problems with a 'super-nanny' recently where mothers had expressed their opinions rather forcefully on some forum and in a somewhat negative manner and this resulted in legal action being taken against the site in question.

 

I also cannot imagine any 'professional' wanting to get into an open-air discussion on a web forum. Big risk with little to gain from the exercise.

 

Sorry if I'm a party pooper and of course it's just my opinion.

 

Far better to 'recommend' and specific 'moans' can be dealt with privately.

 

Edited August 31, 2006 by happychap

[Callum]

How about some sort of sticky-ied poll thread that lists all the better known builders with a simple question such as "vote for your builder if you would recommend them", or perhaps a two part poll recommended and not recommended. That way there is no adverse comment, merely a vote of confidence/no confidence.

 

Come on Mods, there seems to be a real desire to have something so please work with us and let us know what would/would not work and what you would/would not be happy with.

[Yoda]

If you have bought a new boat and it is faulty, the Sale of Goods Act can be invoked. Not fit for purpose as it cannot perform to the agreed specification. This will lead the builder to fix the problems or be taken to court. Once he's in court, the matter is public.

 

There can be no harm if a copy of a letter, detailing the faults occuring, was published after the builder has received the letter. If a builder cannot weld we all want to know. It is also fair to tell everyone the full reponce to the builders letter. ie was it all fixed to your satisfaction.

 

It would also be a good idea to tell everyone when a builder gives good service. That will balence everything out of the negative side.

 

There can be no excuse for poor workmanship and some of the horrors found on this site would be deemed criminal, in the aircraft industry.

 

Don't forget a boat is no different to a car. Both are complex and have many components so there will always be something wrong from new. Thats why dealers are there to fix them.

[John Orentas]

In theory under British law you can say anything, as long as it is true. That is easy for me to say as it would be Jon that would take the heat in the event of any litigation.

 

Some of you have already come close to the edge. Let's just keep it that we don't mention any names and we don't make negative comment about builders or anyone else, if for no other reason than, that such campaigning, and that is how it may be viewed is not appropriate on this kind of forum.

[Yoda]

In theory under British law you can say anything, as long as it is true. That is easy for me to say as it would be Jon that would take the heat in the event of any litigation.

 

Some of you have already come close to the edge. Let's just keep it that we don't mention any names and we don't make negative comment about builders or anyone else, if for no other reason than, that such campaigning, and that is how it may be viewed is not appropriate on this kind of forum.

 

I would expect that a letter that was risky legally would be pulled by the moderators straight away.

[William Martin]

I have had my rant on another thread - "New Builds - I am NOT a bank" but...

 

 

...as long as people are prepared to provide cash flow for the incompetents, they will always be with us. Demand that your builder is self financed and you will see the messers fade away!

[Yoda]

I have had my rant on another thread - "New Builds - I am NOT a bank" but...

...as long as people are prepared to provide cash flow for the incompetents, they will always be with us. Demand that your builder is self financed and you will see the messers fade away!

 

I think there are many genuine people out there who can build boats but maybe cannot raise enough money, for whatever reason, to bank with you.

 

If you enter into a contract with a boat builder you too have to show good intent and if your the customer that would be by exchanging money for the contract.

 

Fairness in all things.

[William Martin]

Yoda - I think I had covered all that in the original thread - the customer should only ever cover the suppliers ultimate risk - not provide his working capital. I speak from experience of other industries where the current accepted boat-building practice would be laughed at.

 

A customer experiencing problems with his build will find the response from his builder much more positive if the builder were to carry some of the risk, as happens in most other businesses.

 

 

 

"genuine people out there who can build boats but maybe cannot raise enough money"

 

 

People need to stop seeing boat-builders as chirpy little craftsman artisans - you are entrusting BOTH your money AND your asset with them, a massive risk for you, virtually no risk for them - if they cant show themselves as accountable for that responsibility they should not be entrusted - and the best way to show that is to finance their own business.

[William Martin]

"its not always so easy to spot the wrong uns.. is it?"

 

it is simple - when they need your money to run their business!

[happychap]

Yoda - I think I had covered all that in the original thread - the customer should only ever cover the suppliers ultimate risk - not provide his working capital. I speak from experience of other industries where the current accepted boat-building practice would be laughed at.

 

A customer experiencing problems with his build will find the response from his builder much more positive if the builder were to carry some of the risk, as happens in most other businesses.

"genuine people out there who can build boats but maybe cannot raise enough money"

People need to stop seeing boat-builders as chirpy little craftsman artisans - you are entrusting BOTH your money AND your asset with them, a massive risk for you, virtually no risk for them - if they cant show themselves as accountable for that responsibility they should not be entrusted - and the best way to show that is to finance their own business.

I concur here, when we selected our builder (and we have yet to finalise some details) this was a major concern. One very well known and very highly respected builder wanted 50% payment when the base plate was laid and the remainder before completion. I was amazed as our other shortlist candidates required only nomimal (5% to 10%) deposits with nothing else to pay until the boat was completed. Our chosen builder will require nothing else until the boat is completed and to our satisfaction.

 

We're only going for a sailaway and I cannot image how we would have approached a purchase of £60k or more for a finished 'spec' boat.

 

Just FYI, I spoke to a number of brokers, checked out the sale price of new/second-hand boats from various builders and also asked a couple of surveyors to recommend several hull builders.

 

From this we selected 5 to visit who we were confident could build a good quality boat that would re-sell well (if needed) and who all provided 'indicative' prices/specs all before we met them. One guy we didn't warm to so he was off the list and 'up-front' payments were a deciding factor along with meeting and talking to recent owners of boats by the selected builders. This left us with a clear winner.

[William Martin]

and that is why you are called "happychap", and not "naive'n'stung" (or "unsecured'lender")

 

 

[Yoda]

Yoda - I think I had covered all that in the original thread - the customer should only ever cover the suppliers ultimate risk - not provide his working capital. I speak from experience of other industries where the current accepted boat-building practice would be laughed at.

 

A customer experiencing problems with his build will find the response from his builder much more positive if the builder were to carry some of the risk, as happens in most other businesses.

"genuine people out there who can build boats but maybe cannot raise enough money"

People need to stop seeing boat-builders as chirpy little craftsman artisans - you are entrusting BOTH your money AND your asset with them, a massive risk for you, virtually no risk for them - if they cant show themselves as accountable for that responsibility they should not be entrusted - and the best way to show that is to finance their own business.

 

I mostly agree with what you have written. I meant that you should part with enough money on contract exchange to purchase the steel in full and stage payment thereafter depending on fitout. If the builder knows that as a stage is completed correctly, then the cost money for the next stage will be forthcomming. Otherwise having to wait until the boat is finished could mean that there is not enough money slushing around his bank account to purchase your bits and wait six months to be paid.

[Paul H]

There are good boatbuilders and lousy boat builders but even good boatbuilders sometimes build lousy boats. As an operator of a small marina I have seeen and heard many a tale of woe and legal action - these have include problems with award winning boatbuilders and long-established volume builders.

 

Narrow boats are built in often quite primitive working conditions, often by enthusiasts rather than businessmen with little quality-control and supervision of labour, "snags" are inevitable and quite major problems do occur. A particular problem time is when a successful builder expands to meet demand and stops being so "hands on" himself. For example, a faulty weld on a water tank meant constantly wet bilges for one boat, rotting floorbearers and after 5 years of legal argy bargy the boatbuilders took it back to their yard, stripped out the interior and started again. A good result in the end but not something any of us would like to go through. I would urge every purchaser of a new boat to employ a surveyor to supervise the build and particularly for a pre-delivery inspection. Failing that, buy a boat just a few years old when all the teething problems have been ironed out - and it is a nice clean purchase without the worry of stage payments and transfer of ownership.

 

As regards the financial standing of boatbuilders, narrow boats are simply too cheap! Compare them to sea going boats and even fibreglass river boats, you will see what a bargain you're getting. For example a Viking 32 aft-cabin fibreglass cruiser with 40hp four-stroke outboard motor is advertised at £48,950!! Profit margins on the canals are simply too thin and if they are building to a fixed price and material costs increase between order and delivery (as they have done of late) then the boatbuilder has problems. Yes, many of them are underfunded hence the need for stage payments but if they were borrowing the money from the bank rather than you then the price would go up accordingly.

 

On balance, I'd buy secondhand. Immediate delivery, less hassle, less worry, less depreciation and with today's largely standardised layout probably not much different to what you'd have ended up with anyway.

 

Paul H