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Hand painted or Vinyl?


dave moore

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Hi all

 

I've followed the recent vinyl thread with interest, but I've no wish to hijack it.What follows is personal opinion only, a few thoughts spurred by comments in the other thread.

 

AS many members will know, I'm a working signwriter/boat decorator specialising in canal style work. This year marks 50 years around boats, the last 30 of commercial painting activity. Yes, I'll admit, I'm very much a traditionalist!

 

I applaud a comment in the other thread saying that traditional style boats need a hand painted livery. I'm fortunate that the bulk of the work I do these days falls within that remit and I'm happy to remain there. In trading days, boats were recognised as being decorated by a particular yard or painter and the same is true today. I often meet old customers long after the job is done who tell me that others recognise my work on their travels. That's good!

 

The "Can't tell the ddifference" comment I found surprising.There is no way that I can paint letters with the precision that a computer can cut them but this is precisely the point. Most signwriters are an individualistic bunch and develop personal variations on standard typefaces. It is this that gives hand painted work its character and style and it's what differentiates my work to other painters, to whom I offer no disrespect.

 

There is no doubt that computer generated lettering programmes are increasingly sophisticated and can simulate, for example, the blended shading that I do by hand. What it can't readily do is to make the infinitesimal tweaks that make a line of lettering or size of a scroll look "right". ( i usually make the scroll in the corner of the cabin with the upsweep a little larger than its opposite, for example). The output, to my eye, is soul-less and mechanical, perfect for a corporate image, less so for an individual livery on someone's treasured boat.

 

"Proclaiming pride of ownership" is the reason for some boaters to opt for hand painted work. I'm fortunate that sufficient discerning owners choose that option. If cost is the determining factor then vinyl is the way to go, certainly.

 

Enough from me. Now have your say!

 

Dave

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That's all true I'm sure Dave, but many of us don't have traditional boats and don't want traditional signwriting. I don't mind scrolls on other people's boats, just not on mine thanks. The other thing is that while signwriting paint is a great medium in the hands of a craftsman, judging by the poor work I see on some boats there are a quite a few bad signwriters out there. If a vinyl sign is badly designed it doesn't have to be printed and if it's badly printed it doesn't have to be paid for or stuck on, but once a bad signwriter gets going you might not realise until he or she has finished.

 

I agree that good signwriting can proclaim pride of ownership, but so can other things and we all have our own preferences and priorities in that respect.

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"Proclaiming pride of ownership" is the reason for some boaters to opt for hand painted work. I'm fortunate that sufficient discerning owners choose that option. If cost is the determining factor then vinyl is the way to go, certainly.

Dave

 

Thats a good post Dave aside from this bit - it frankly smacks of snobbery and elitism.

 

If the owner of (modern) boat choses to use an up to date method to adorn their boat with it's name it does not make them less discerning or that they are less proud of their ownership.

 

They merely have chosen not to spend their money on that aspect of boat ownership and/or have chosen to move with the times and use the current technology which working boat owners did in their day... did they not?

 

Of course (as I said in the other thread) - using vinyl on a boat like Sickle, Fenny or Whitby would be tantamount to vandalism...that is a given.

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Hi all

 

I've followed the recent vinyl thread with interest, but I've no wish to hijack it.What follows is personal opinion only, a few thoughts spurred by comments in the other thread.

 

AS many members will know, I'm a working signwriter/boat decorator specialising in canal style work. This year marks 50 years around boats, the last 30 of commercial painting activity. Yes, I'll admit, I'm very much a traditionalist!

 

I applaud a comment in the other thread saying that traditional style boats need a hand painted livery. I'm fortunate that the bulk of the work I do these days falls within that remit and I'm happy to remain there. In trading days, boats were recognised as being decorated by a particular yard or painter and the same is true today. I often meet old customers long after the job is done who tell me that others recognise my work on their travels. That's good!

 

The "Can't tell the ddifference" comment I found surprising.There is no way that I can paint letters with the precision that a computer can cut them but this is precisely the point. Most signwriters are an individualistic bunch and develop personal variations on standard typefaces. It is this that gives hand painted work its character and style and it's what differentiates my work to other painters, to whom I offer no disrespect.

 

There is no doubt that computer generated lettering programmes are increasingly sophisticated and can simulate, for example, the blended shading that I do by hand. What it can't readily do is to make the infinitesimal tweaks that make a line of lettering or size of a scroll look "right". ( i usually make the scroll in the corner of the cabin with the upsweep a little larger than its opposite, for example). The output, to my eye, is soul-less and mechanical, perfect for a corporate image, less so for an individual livery on someone's treasured boat.

 

"Proclaiming pride of ownership" is the reason for some boaters to opt for hand painted work. I'm fortunate that sufficient discerning owners choose that option. If cost is the determining factor then vinyl is the way to go, certainly.

 

Enough from me. Now have your say!

 

Dave

 

 

:clapping:

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When Val and I went round Wadworth's brewery in June, we were shown into the signwriters' workshop. It was only then that I realised every single sign in a Wadsworth pub that looks painted is painted. Since then I've noticed the difference between paining and printing. The latter is a pale imitation.

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Hi all

 

I've followed the recent vinyl thread with interest, but I've no wish to hijack it.What follows is personal opinion only, a few thoughts spurred by comments in the other thread.

 

AS many members will know, I'm a working signwriter/boat decorator specialising in canal style work. This year marks 50 years around boats, the last 30 of commercial painting activity. Yes, I'll admit, I'm very much a traditionalist!

 

I applaud a comment in the other thread saying that traditional style boats need a hand painted livery. I'm fortunate that the bulk of the work I do these days falls within that remit and I'm happy to remain there. In trading days, boats were recognised as being decorated by a particular yard or painter and the same is true today. I often meet old customers long after the job is done who tell me that others recognise my work on their travels. That's good!

 

The "Can't tell the ddifference" comment I found surprising.There is no way that I can paint letters with the precision that a computer can cut them but this is precisely the point. Most signwriters are an individualistic bunch and develop personal variations on standard typefaces. It is this that gives hand painted work its character and style and it's what differentiates my work to other painters, to whom I offer no disrespect.

 

There is no doubt that computer generated lettering programmes are increasingly sophisticated and can simulate, for example, the blended shading that I do by hand. What it can't readily do is to make the infinitesimal tweaks that make a line of lettering or size of a scroll look "right". ( i usually make the scroll in the corner of the cabin with the upsweep a little larger than its opposite, for example). The output, to my eye, is soul-less and mechanical, perfect for a corporate image, less so for an individual livery on someone's treasured boat.

 

"Proclaiming pride of ownership" is the reason for some boaters to opt for hand painted work. I'm fortunate that sufficient discerning owners choose that option. If cost is the determining factor then vinyl is the way to go, certainly.

 

Enough from me. Now have your say!

 

Dave

 

Hi Dave

 

I do appreciate where you're coming from. When I started the removal business some 20 years ago we kicked off with an old Transit Luton van which I repainted Brunswick Green. My business partner at the time had a brother who was a sign writer who does lots of work in Portabello Road London. He kindly offered his services and came down to Dorset and sigh wrote the van. He also did the entire design all freehand. When finished the van looked he business and the sign writing is still on it as we now use this old van for a workshop store next to the boat we're fitting out. His design is such that it's unique and in that sense has a greater value.

 

I'll get a photo of it tomorrow, in the meantime since the original was completed all tthe sign writing since has been done on Vinyl, they managed to copy the original artwork from otiginal signwriters work.

 

This was the result

 

DSCF1359.jpg

 

I have to say though the original looked a lot better and had smoother curvy lines than the vinyl. To have other vehicles hand sigh written the same though would have cost a fortune, so vinyl was used.

 

Let's hope the traditionalists keep on coming and keep you in good steady employment. I think there will always be a market for unique design and the real thing.

 

 

 

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I had intended going the vinyl route because I wasn't sure that hand painting could reproduce exactly the image and font I wanted. I've decided to trust somebody to paint it, so I'll eventually reply to this when its done and honestly say if I think they did the design justice.

 

I did wonder if the vinyl might be indeed exactly as I wanted it but dead because it came from an inanimate machine.

 

We shall see.

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Just out of interest, a pair of vinyl signs (around 8" tall), curved with a shadow would be around £130 for the lettering Wet 'n' Wild. What would we expect to pay for the equivalent hand written signs? I appreciate the work that goes into it but our boat doesn't have the best paintwork in the world but we can't afford to have the whole boat repainted but we are renaming it so need to do something.

 

Many thanks

 

David

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I actually can't remember where mine came from now, but I strongly suspect it was Ebay. I wanted to change the name when I bought it but as the paint is old and tatty and hopefully being re-done next year, paying out for signwriting for a year's use seemed silly.

 

My thoughts exactly :) If you remember who did it please let me know.

 

David

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I've just looked back in my Ebay but I really can't find it I'm afraid. If you are looking for a temporary fix like I was, I'd reccomend trying an Ebay search anyway.

My boat is a cruiser stern Springer with no pretentions of being anything but, and it looks fine to me. When I do my 'proper' painting next year I will have the name properly signwritten by a professional, (albeit very minimalistically) on the bow.

I'm quite the fan of shabby-chic and kind of like the idea that over the years, proper signwriting will weather and age with the rest of the paintwork rather than looking glaringly new.

It's only been a year since I put the vinyl up but it still looks fine for what it is- not peeling, bubbling or fading at all, and the vinyl is very low profile without a discernable raised edge- and as I say, was under £30 for two sheets.

Edited by Starcoaster
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I've given Lawrence a greenie. Vinyl is a tech solution, it suits the sign trade. If a sign is all you want, vinyl will do the job. Printing on vinyl will get you a touch closer to copying the signwriter. Cost you more too, as you try.

 

Understandably, cost can be the decider.

 

Vinyl would be better than a dire signwriter. Even in the hands of a numpty, the software and technology available to a signmaker would just about get them through. Using a keyboard and plotter, even at a basic level, can produce a sign. Asking for any balance or artistry is too far for many operatives. Buying the equiptment is a few thousand, these days. In its early days, it was tens of thousands (1980's).

 

Not everyone with access to a computer and an arts/design package can design. There are many examples of signs that are jobs without proportion.

 

Simple comparison - you've either got a functional, mass-producible sign, or a one-off piece of craftwork.

Edited by Higgs
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I prefer the traditional side of this debate so it's 'painting' for me. It has the tiny imperfections that make is seem 'human' and not 'machine' generated which I think gives it personality. Just had the boat repainted and decided on painted signwriting.

 

My boat as signwritten

DSCF7406.JPG

Edited by Leo No2
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Unfortunately for me the yard that re-painted the boat insisted on using a sign writer because they (the yard) do a "quality" job. They also refused to use line tape. The result some 6 was that the signwriting had worn down, shedding far too much paint each time we polished the boat and now the boat really needs a re-paint again I am left with the problem of how to rid the boat of the signwriting. I know from past experience on vehicles that simply flatting it down with wet and dry is likely to leave a "shadow" in the new paint finish. If the yard has done as I asked or used a sign paint of equal durability to the coach enamel I might be persuaded it was a quality job.

 

The worst you have to face with vinyl is heating it a little for removal and then removing the glue. Trying to remove sign writing is far harder and time consuming.

 

Well applied quality vinyl is fine for the vast majority of ordinary boats owned by proud by ordinary people on the cut and it is far and away the most cost effective. True historic boats or good replicas are another matter.

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When Val and I went round Wadworth's brewery in June, we were shown into the signwriters' workshop. It was only then that I realised every single sign in a Wadsworth pub that looks painted is painted. Since then I've noticed the difference between paining and printing. The latter is a pale imitation.

 

Wadworth's signwriter has done lots of name painting etc on boats, including ours. I'm not sure if he still does though.

 

Dave

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I prefer the traditional side of this debate so it's 'painting' for me. It has the tiny imperfections that make is seem 'human' and not 'machine' generated which I think gives it personality. Just had the boat repainted and decided on painted signwriting.

 

 

It looks very nice Kathryn, but I don't understand the aversion to things that are "machine generated" which several posters have mentioned.

 

What about all the other things on your boat that have been made with machines?

Edited by blackrose
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What about all the other things on your boat that have been made with machines?

I think the 'issue' is that you don't see all the 'machine generated' stuff regularly. The engine and gearbox, for example, which we must have machined to the tolerances required to perform as we wish are perhaps 'out of sight and therefore out of mind' but it's a good point - maybe it's just my view that I like the results of the painted sign-writing and was prepared to pay for that. The boat was hand-painted as well!!

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I think the 'issue' is that you don't see all the 'machine generated' stuff regularly. The engine and gearbox, for example, which we must have machined to the tolerances required to perform as we wish are perhaps 'out of sight and therefore out of mind' but it's a good point - maybe it's just my view that I like the results of the painted sign-writing and was prepared to pay for that. The boat was hand-painted as well!!

 

I think your boat looks stunning, particularly the lettering. But I think the key issue is that your boat is emulating something quite 'traditional' (I'm also noting the shell design, the chimney and the R&C's so I can understand the choice in some respects.

 

But from a distance and particularly in that photo it's hard to determine that the lettering is not vinyl. Close up of course it may be completely different.

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But from a distance and particularly in that photo it's hard to determine that the lettering is not vinyl. Close up of course it may be completely different.

I am sure the OP would be delighted to know that you think he's as good as vinyl! :cheers:

 

I think you can tell up close.

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