what happened to tick over??

[alan_fincher]

And not just historic boats. Telemachus does around 2 mph at tickover......

Although it is hard to be certain exactly what speed a boat is doing, (and I suspect a lot of the time there is a huge gulf between what people are doing, and what they think they are doinq!), I suspect an awful lot of narrow boats, from the very new, right through to the very old, are easily capable of making 2mph at tick-over in deep water.

 

That in my view doesn't make a boat "badly designed", (although clearly many modern narrow boats, and even some old one, have bigger engines than they actually need), but it does need to be borne in mind.

 

Certainly with a boat like "Sickle", (which carries exactly the same engine type as she did for part of her service with British Waterways), it is certainly my choice to drop her out of gear for brief periods. I can't recall ever being the victim of "slow down" calls with her, but I'd prefer to keep it that way.

 

I know GPS readings are not that accurate at these kind of speeds, but I'll try and get an idea at the weekend what she tends to do in tick-over - I'd be surprised if it is not significantly more than 2mph, which is why I said earlier that tick-over is such a meaningless "measure" to me. (Well it is no "measure" at all, IMO).

[NB Alnwick]

And not just historic boats. Telemachus does around 2 mph at tickover, and in our marina, which is very deep, more than that, which makes sliding past other boats on the long pontoons slightly hairy! In fact I suspect it does about 2 mph backwards in tickover reverse once it has built speed up.

 

>snip<

 

If that is the case then either your tickover needs adjusting or you have the wrong gearbox for canal speeds. We reach our cruising speed (about 3.5 mph on the Oxford Canal) at around 350 rpm - if we drop the engine speed down to under 100 rpm we can comfortably cruise and steer at something in the region of 1 mph measured with our Garmin. At tickover (80 rpm) we can keep the speed down to 1 mph without difficulty.

[alan_fincher]

Given the nature of our canals with blind bends, narrow bridges and overhanging trees - in addition to moored boats, I cannot believe that any sensible person would design a narrow boat that can only navigate slowly if taken out of gear - surely the rudder will be less effective if there is no propulsion and as a result the steerer will have less control.

If you seriously mean as slow as 1mph,I think you'll find most of the major carrying fleets managed to. Fellows Morton Clayton & GUCCCo built such boats in their hundreds!

 

Mind you, people were a bit less precious about speeds when those boats were built, and most were boated robustly in a way that many people now don't consider acceptable, I'll agree.

 

The bends and narrow bridges wouldn't have been wildly different then, either, although I'll agree many of the trees might have been better trimmed.

 

EDIT:

 

It has been regularly suggested in the past that Gamins and other similar GPS devices are not capable of giving anything other than very appromiate results at walking pace, so I imagine by the time you are around the 1mph an hour mark, (or they say you are!), they really aren't very accurate at all.

 

Certainly our Garmin yields wildly varying results to the GPS dongle we regularly have connected to a PC with the Navvygator software, so who is to say which, if either, is correct ?

Edited May 25, 2012 by alan_fincher

[NB Alnwick]

Although it is hard to be certain exactly what speed a boat is doing, (and I suspect a lot of the time there is a huge gulf between what people are doing, and what they think they are doinq!), I suspect an awful lot of narrow boats, from the very new, right through to the very old, are easily capable of making 2mph at tick-over in deep water.

 

That in my view doesn't make a boat "badly designed", (although clearly many modern narrow boats, and even some old one, have bigger engines than they actually need), but it does need to be borne in mind.

 

>snip<

 

 

Back in 2006 I did a fair amount of research on boat speeds - there was a topic about the results on here and I used our Garmin to measure the speed over fairly long distances. We were able to cover the 22 miles from Sharpness to Portishead in just over two hours but that was with the benefit of wind and tide. We had no trouble making 7 mph on the Gloucester and Sharpness but I was surprised at how slow we needed to go on the canals to avoid making a wash. The other fact was that trying to move at just under 4 mph on local canals used almost twice as much fuel as when travelling at a more sedate 3.5 mph and even at that speed Jane often tells me to slow down!

[RLWP]

<snip>

 

At tickover (80 rpm)

 

<snip>

 

Teddy bear's picnic

 

Alnwick steers very nicely at that speed. So does Tawny Owl for that matter

 

Richard

Edited May 25, 2012 by RLWP

[NB Alnwick]

 

>snip<

 

It has been regularly suggested in the past that Gamins and other similar GPS devices are not capable of giving anything other than very appromiate results at walking pace, so I imagine by the time you are around the 1mph an hour mark, (or they say you are!), they really aren't very accurate at all.

 

Certainly our Garmin yields wildly varying results to the GPS dongle we regularly have connected to a PC with the Navvygator software, so who is to say which, if either, is correct ?

 

Our hand held Garmin was designed for hiking/walking - its accuracy over long distances seems pretty good . . .

[Naughty Cal]

Our hand held Garmin was designed for hiking/walking - its accuracy over long distances seems pretty good . . .

 

We also have a handheld Garmin GPS as well as our fixed Raymarine GPS and a Navigator GPS system on my mobile phone. None can make NC travel at less than 3mph.

[nicknorman]

 

I know GPS readings are not that accurate at these kind of speeds, but I'll try and get an idea at the weekend what she tends to do in tick-over - I'd be surprised if it is not significantly more than 2mph, which is why I said earlier that tick-over is such a meaningless "measure" to me. (Well it is no "measure" at all, IMO).

GPS speed can be measured in 2 ways, one by measuring time/distance between fixes say every second, and these days more commonly by using the degree of Doppler shift / oscillator offset. I think the latter gives better results at low speed, although some devices have a zero speed clamp to keep the display on zero when stationary. If the clamp is set high it can inhibit speed readings at very low speed.

 

I find the iPhone/iPad later versions very good, with speed readings to 0.1mph and even though it can jump around a bit especially under trees, the App has a medium term averaging function that smooths this out.

 

If that is the case then either your tickover needs adjusting or you have the wrong gearbox for canal speeds. We reach our cruising speed (about 3.5 mph on the Oxford Canal) at around 350 rpm - if we drop the engine speed down to under 100 rpm we can comfortably cruise and steer at something in the region of 1 mph measured with our Garmin. At tickover (80 rpm) we can keep the speed down to 1 mph without difficulty.

Tickover speed is correct at 850. The boat does have a Beta 43 which is on the large side for canals, standard PRM150 and a fairly big prop. The design criteria for prop is that the engine can just about reach max rpm in deep water, something it just about does. Personally I find no problem with the relatively fast minimum speed, it makes it easy when passing boats because tickover is the correct speed (no need to look at tacho). I see no need to be able to sustain 1 mph apart from when stuck behind selfish or incompetent people going ridiculously slowly - and then I either overtake or stop for a cuppa!

 

So I would say it is well designed, but that is of course a matter of personal opinion.

[DHutch]

Our engine doesn't have a tickover...

 

As said, a lot of its about the hull shape, draught, how far before the boat they slowed, and equally critically as all of the above, how well tied the moored boat is and the waterway in question.

 

 

Daniel

[bizzard]

Its also surprising the disturbance a large Carp can make when swimming home fast and close to the surface on a summers evening. They have no regard for any speed limits either,i've tried shouting at them and waving a fishing rod with a nasty big hook on it but all to no avail. Ignorant beesties.

[jelunga]

Jamaica ?

No, she went of her own accord

 

 

Wrong joke?

Edited to add

Beaten to it by a neck!

Edited May 25, 2012 by jelunga

[Tesla]

Genoa?

[Leni]

Its also surprising the disturbance a large Carp can make

 

To right! I've seen many a large carp on this forum, and boy do they make a disturbance!

 

 

 

To hot for a coat - gimme me sun-hat

[GSer]

If you just ask people to slow down past moored boats a fair percentage think that just a change in engine note is enough, however we know that isn't enough in the real world so asking people to slow to tickover is just a indication of how slow we would expect people to go when passing, weather tickover is needed or not is down to the steerer, it mor a matter of showing some repect to fellow users, respect for others is one of the things that i think the canal world still has that the outside world has forgotten, long may it remain imo

 

As for canoes causing narrowboats to move about, i'm moored on the kennet below woolhampton at the moment, its flowing steadily and about 5' deep, i've been a bit lazy with my lines and the pair of boats can move 1' when boats come past, just now the pair were dragged upstream, causing the bow line to droop, so i though i'd pop my head out to see if it was anybody i knew, you could have knocked me down with a feather when out from tthe shadow of the butty came one of those plastic stumpy sit on kayaks, nothing else!!! That one canoe going upstream on a river thats perhaps 20mtr wide managed to move the 40tons of boats upstream with ease.

Edited May 25, 2012 by GSer

[FadeToScarlet]

Genoa?

 

Barely knew 'er.

[MtB]

Rubbish.

 

Its worrying that someone so experienced in boating demonstrates such a total lack of understanding.

 

What about canoes?

 

 

Good point. I accept the criticism. What's YOUR hypothesis then?

 

I have no explanation for the effect canoes have. My current theory is they have giant electromagnets concealed in them which they turn On and OFF as they pass, by which means they speed their passage at the expense of the stasis of the moored narrowboats.

 

I stand by my assertion that it is not the wash (by the narrow technical definition of 'wash') from a boat as claimjed by Athythat causes the movement on moored boats.

 

Anyway, another thing. This effect simply does not occur on The Thames. Boats scream past and the only disturbance IS caused by their wash, after they have passed. No back-and-forth movement imparted. Nor do canoes have any impact whatsoever. Right now I am watching about twelve sea scout canoes tearing up close past my boat moored on the Thames at Reading. Close enough to speak to them without raisng my voice. No disturbance to my boat whatsoever. How does that fit in?

[bowten]

I don't think for one minute the OP meant that every boat should slow to tickover,the inference of his post I am sure was to bring to the attention of the forum that going at or about the limit of 4mph whilst passing moored boats is a no no.To not slow down to a reasonable speed can be viewed as both ignorant and arrogant.

[smileypete]

I stand by my assertion that it is not the wash (by the narrow technical definition of 'wash') from a boat as claimjed by Athythat causes the movement on moored boats.

 

Anyway, another thing. This effect simply does not occur on The Thames. Boats scream past and the only disturbance IS caused by their wash, after they have passed. No back-and-forth movement imparted. Nor do canoes have any impact whatsoever.

Does with this, LOL!

 

 

And wash does cause movements on moored boats too!

 

cheers,

Pete.

[bizzard]

To right! I've seen many a large carp on this forum, and boy do they make a disturbance!

 

 

 

To hot for a coat - gimme me sun-hat

Pike more like.

[ChrisPy]

 

 

 

 

those are seriously challenging anchors.

 

 

oo-er !

Edited May 26, 2012 by ChrisPy

[Tiny]

I wish people would stop using engine revs as a measure in this particular issue. It means nothing.

 

The issue is about wash, and the disturbance a boat leaves in it's wake. Different engines tick over at different speeds. Mine is a small and therefore relatively high revving engine. I tire of the miserable moaners who shout 'slow down' as I pass. More often than not they have not even looked at the wake of my boat, it hasn't reached them yet! As in all walks of life, some people on the cut need to find something worthwhile to stress about!

 

Unlike you my boat creates little wash but will still suck your pins out if I don't slow to fast tickover (900 on my Beta). As to the Shroppie it is a bit of a racetrack - especially to locals and those still an hour from a pub at 5pm. Mind you manners are getting worse everywhere from my observations.

[Tiny]

That is what Florence said to Boater Zeberdee, but he misunderstood.

 

Springs are great, but can still fail if staked into soft ground and repeatedly pulled by passing speeders.

 

Given time certain places where boats chain to the metal have the metal pulled out of shape by said passing boats.

 

(Here we go again!...)

 

(I really don't know why I get involved in this nonsense......)

 

If anybody thinks "tick-over" is a meaningful measure of speed, and has some time on their hands to visit us a couple of times, please allow me to demonstrate "tick-over" on "Chalice", then, subsequently "tick-over" on "Sickle".

 

Perhaps anybody who is happy that I pass them on "Sickle's" tick-over, whatever the canal depth or conditions, can make themselves known, and, if I spot you, I'll not bother to knock her out of gear, even if that looks like the correct action to me! (Don't complain though, I will after all be on your prescribed "tick-over", even if you move about quite a bit).

 

On the other hand though, please don't force me to pass every boat on "Chalice's" tick-over - that really is ridiculous overkill most of the time.

 

Boats are all different, (Chalice prop 17" - Sickle prop 26" - a full 2.4 times the area "swept" by Chalice's), waterways are all different.

 

Please stop inventing "one size fits all" solutions that are not solutions at all.

 

How true. Even what the banks are made of changes the wash amount. A soft offside absorbs, a metal edge reflects, for example.

 

at the same time, having been naed and shamed for going tearing past moored boats with ne'er a flick of the throttle I doubt NBT are best placed to comment!

 

The latest trick on the Llangollen involves arriving at speed and flicking out of gear for the length the steerer is alongside the moored boat then power back on as they are in a rush to get to ?.

[mykaskin]

Given time certain places where boats chain to the metal have the metal pulled out of shape by said passing boats.

 

 

Caused by incompetent moorers who leave slack in their lines, which then causes the line to snatch and 15 ton of boat comes to a rest in 1 inch or less. Even better when people use short lines or chains which don't take up the shock, or moor on nappy pins that are sat next to the boat!

 

Boating used to be about boating, not mooring! If you want to moor, learn to do it properly!

 

1 mph is virtually drifting, I can single-handedly pull a narrowboat faster than that! Victoria doesn't behave well at such speeds so I usually strap it off with a rope to bring it to a stop. Moving away obviously involves spinning the prop, so there is your steerage. It is possible to feather the clutch to manoeuvre slowly, but Victoria is often too much at risk of the elements to do so safely.

 

2 mph is often more than slow enough in any situation to pass boats safely

 

2.5 mph is the more common speed of passing boats

 

3 mph is safely possible on deeper canals, and in some cases I've passed boats at 4mph without adversely effecting them on the deeper bits of the GU.

 

As many have said, there isn't a one size fits all.

 

Mike

[gary955]

Noticed a widebeam on the K&A this weekend with a "slow down" sign, like a railway signal. it was operated by a light rope (like blue string) pinned to the bank, so that as the boat was sucked away from the bank by a passing boater the string would tighten and the sign would pop up.

The string was considerably tighter than the mooring rope which was so slack that it actually dangled into the water!! It appeared that his boat was actually moored by the string!!

If only he was as good at mooring as he is at moaning, the very clever sign might be unnecessary

[ditchcrawler]

Good point. I accept the criticism. What's YOUR hypothesis then?

 

I have no explanation for the effect canoes have. My current theory is they have giant electromagnets concealed in them which they turn On and OFF as they pass,

I think Tesco have those as well, it always seams to drag my boat against the side and only releases after they have scanned my credit card.