Up the Grand Union in drought

[tug-major]

I shall keep my reply short as I don't usually get tangled up in these pointless discussions that seem to be dragged on forever and get completely blown out of proportion.

 

I know the owners/operators of both boats very well and I know that they both have incredible respect for the canal system. The boats are presented in as near original condition as possible and are a credit to the people who own/operate them. Given every possible opportunity; I know for a fact, the people involved would (and do) help other boaters as much as possible and this includes closing gates. Well i think he so sad and just to let eveone no he was chatting to us all nice in the lock he just got to much time on his hands to chat about us the way we boat and tel eveone !! U like your name and shame eveone wot about we do that to you !!

 

As has already been pointed out in this thread it can be immensely annoying after making the effort to shut gates, that they simply blow open with the movement of water. These boats are deep draughted boats that turn a large propeller and it's obvious that they will disturb objects that are suspended in the water.

 

How is anyone supposed to know that boats are queuing for a lock 1) when the occupants of the boat sit and watch you sail by and 2) when there are no boats tied on the stumps immediately prior to the entrance to the lock? On the road: surely you would over-take a car that has stopped a hundred foot before a set of traffic lights, parked agains the kurb with it’s engine off? Maybe I'm wrong but I don’t see the difference!

 

I must say that I am glad that neither boat involved is under the control or ownership of my company, as the businessman who has been "naming and shaming" on this forum would be receiving a letter from my solicitor. It's not professional and it is breaking the law. I'm sure that we could all slag other "businessmen" off for how they run their businesses or how their staff go about their daily work, but if you have a problem speak to the person(s) involved instead of broadcasting all over the world.

 

I personally shall be writing a letter of complaint to the administrators on this forum as I believe that some of the comments made within this thread are in breach of the membership conditions.

 

Stick with what you do best, and that’s obviously not boating!

 

Regards,

[MtB]

Well there are already hundreds of live-in vehicles in London, moving every day, way more than there are ccers, but there are more roads than there are canals, so unless you know what you are looking for, you will miss them. They are very much under the radar, you will never see anything in the media about them. I only know how many there are because some friends do it. It takes one to know one.

 

I find some are esily recognised by the stove pipe and Paloma flue sticking through the roof.

 

Mike

[Dominic M]

I shall keep my reply short as I don't usually get tangled up in these pointless discussions that seem to be dragged on forever and get completely blown out of proportion.

 

I know the owners/operators of both boats very well and I know that they both have incredible respect for the canal system. The boats are presented in as near original condition as possible and are a credit to the people who own/operate them. Given every possible opportunity; I know for a fact, the people involved would (and do) help other boaters as much as possible and this includes closing gates.

 

As has already been pointed out in this thread it can be immensely annoying after making the effort to shut gates, that they simply blow open with the movement of water. These boats are deep draughted boats that turn a large propeller and it's obvious that they will disturb objects that are suspended in the water.

 

How is anyone supposed to know that boats are queuing for a lock 1) when the occupants of the boat sit and watch you sail by and 2) when there are no boats tied on the stumps immediately prior to the entrance to the lock? On the road: surely you would over-take a car that has stopped a hundred foot before a set of traffic lights, parked agains the kurb with it’s engine off? Maybe I'm wrong but I don’t see the difference!

 

I must say that I am glad that neither boat involved is under the control or ownership of my company, as the businessman who has been "naming and shaming" on this forum would be receiving a letter from my solicitor. It's not professional and it is breaking the law. I'm sure that we could all slag other "businessmen" off for how they run their businesses or how their staff go about their daily work, but if you have a problem speak to the person(s) involved instead of broadcasting all over the world.

 

I personally shall be writing a letter of complaint to the administrators on this forum as I believe that some of the comments made within this thread are in breach of the membership conditions.

 

Stick with what you do best, and that’s obviously not boating!

 

Regards,

The boats are indeed in fabulous condition. What has that got to do with the price of bacon?

 

They knew full well that the top lock at Cowroast had been padlocked and that Monday, March 26th was the first time boats could pass through, at 10am that morning. They arrived at dusk on Sunday evening, March 25th. They were told as they cruised by that 5 boats were waiting to go up, and several had been waiting there for a number of days.

 

Write your letter of complaint, for you were not there. We were. Their behaviour caused a lot of ill feeling.

 

Nothing libellous has been said. Those on Archimedes and Emu might better consider the resentment they created, and not behaved as though they had some superior right to use the canal. They don't.

 

I was working. I had to move a boat in a fixed time frame. I may stick with what I do best, and one of those is boating on the inland waterways for 30 years, when the people who were moving Archimedes and Emu were either still a twinkle in their father's eye, or in nappies.

 

And I post under my own name, not under the pseudonym of some Titan of ancient Greek mythology, Hyperion.

 

You don't know what you're talking about, you weren't there, and you know little about boating etiquette, common courtesy or encouraging custom from boats on that stretch of the canal.

 

"Stick with what you do best, and that’s obviously not boating!"

 

Not libellous? Pot, kettle and black.

[Dominic M]

They are now approaching Kings Norton.

Bet they did not hold anybody up and iI would not bet against the 2nd lock of boats the other morning were still tied up when they vacated to lock !

Maybe Malcolm, but they deliberately jumped the queue at Cowroast, and they knew it.

 

I don't care about their locking skills - they were nothing unusual: no thumblines to pull the gates open for example. They jumped the queue when etiquette would have said that they should wait their turn. An old Small Woolwich does not have superior rights to a 1989 Colecraft, does it? I know how to sail a gaff rig skutjse: does that give me special dispensation? No.

[Jparry]

The boats are indeed in fabulous condition. What has that got to do with the price of bacon?

 

They knew full well that the top lock at Cowroast had been padlocked and that Monday, March 26th was the first time boats could pass through, at 10am that morning. They arrived at dusk on Sunday evening, March 25th. They were told as they cruised by that 5 boats were waiting to go up, and several had been waiting there for a number of days.

 

Write your letter of complaint, for you were not there. We were. Their behaviour caused a lot of ill feeling.

 

Nothing libellous has been said. Those on Archimedes and Emu might better consider the resentment they created, and not behaved as though they had some superior right to use the canal. They don't.

 

I was working. I had to move a boat in a fixed time frame. I may stick with what I do best, and one of those is boating on the inland waterways for 30 years, when the people who were moving Archimedes and Emu were either still a twinkle in their father's eye, or in nappies.

 

And I post under my own name, not under the pseudonym of some Titan of ancient Greek mythology, Hyperion.

 

You don't know what you're talking about, you weren't there, and you know little about boating etiquette, common courtesy or encouraging custom from boats on that stretch of the canal.

 

"Stick with what you do best, and that’s obviously not boating!"

 

Not libellous? Pot, kettle and black.

 

Well said that man, I will buy you a drink next time I see you

[Dominic M]

Well said that man, I will buy you a drink next time I see you

I'll buy you one back! I am amazed that anyone can defend this behaviour. I have played with boats for 30 years. I lived on boats for 15 years. I started on the Thames, and the attitude of these two beautifully restored original narrow boats, and the support for their actions, reminds me of the attitude some old Thames boaters used to display. Snobbery at its worst. "I've got a boat that was one of the Little Ships that went to Dunkerque, so I have the right to the lock before your knackered old Broads cruiser." Which was my first boat, bought in 1981. You do? I don't think so.

[Ange]

Would have given Dominic a greenie but I've used my meagre quota for the day. He was running a working boat, ie one that was earning a living on the canals. Folks running restored ex working boats are playing - they may have distances they want to travel but it's still leisure use. They shouldn't expect priority. If you're not nimble enough to nip along the gang plank then don't run your deep drafted boats for leisure use during water shortages.

[Dominic M]

Would have given Dominic a greenie but I've used my meagre quota for the day. He was running a working boat, ie one that was earning a living on the canals. Folks running restored ex working boats are playing - they may have distances they want to travel but it's still leisure use. They shouldn't expect priority. If you're not nimble enough to nip along the gang plank then don't run your deep drafted boats for leisure use during water shortages.

And I can tell you Ange, I neither expected nor asked for any priority either. Yes, I had a job to do, blessed by fantastic weather . But the first boats there, until the queue jumpers arrived, I expected to be the first through. Funny how I deduced this, but somehow Archimedes and Emu did not. I had only arrived near dusk, and I asked who was waiting. It was very shallow and difficult to moor. I could have sailed straight into the lock. I didn't, and pathetic bleatings in defence of Archimedes and Emu really do not hold water, if you'll excuse the pun, any more than the pound did. Which dropped a foot overnight, possibly because the gates had not been closed further down by the last boats up.

[bargeeboy]

I did the same thing returning north in 1989 with 2 pairs at Berko. There was wall to wall boats and the only tie up was in thd lock mouth .We had however cleared the 2 lockfuls by 10 past 8 and again never saw the following boats again !

For your info they are now in the thick of Tardebigge.

 

Maybe Malcolm, but they deliberately jumped the queue at Cowroast, and they knew it.

 

I don't care about their locking skills - they were nothing unusual: no thumblines to pull the gates open for example. They jumped the queue when etiquette would have said that they should wait their turn. An old Small Woolwich does not have superior rights to a 1989 Colecraft, does it? I know how to sail a gaff rig skutjse: does that give me special dispensation? No.

 

Thumblines ! Going up hill. I do admit to experimenting when going downhill to open the top gates but due to the width above the lock it was not reliable enough to be of use .

[koukouvagia]

I suspect that the desire to save water was the main reason for the two boats going into the lock. Unlike the OP who admits that he doesn't know the local conditions, the steerers of the two working boats do. They would have known that there is an undetected leak in the Dudswell pound and the water there always drops overnight. If they had moored alongside the bank, a considerable volume of water would have had to have been run off the summit to get them floating the next morning. By using the lock as a mooring, this need to waste water was avoided. I'm sure that the steerers would have been only too pleased to explain that it was water conservation, not queue jumping that motivated their actions.

I fear that lock rage will become common feature during the summer. That's why I'm staying put this year.

[alan_fincher]

I don't care about their locking skills - they were nothing unusual: no thumblines to pull the gates open for example.

I'm missing something here....

 

The boats werte surely going uphill, not downhill ?

 

How would you use gate lines in an uphill lock ?

[haggis]

I suspect that the desire to save water was the main reason for the two boats going into the lock. Unlike the OP who admits that he doesn't know the local conditions, the steerers of the two working boats do. They would have known that there is an undetected leak in the Dudswell pound and the water there always drops overnight. If they had moored alongside the bank, a considerable volume of water would have had to have been run off the summit to get them floating the next morning. By using the lock as a mooring, this need to waste water was avoided. I'm sure that the steerers would have been only too pleased to explain that it was water conservation, not queue jumping that motivated their actions.

I fear that lock rage will become common feature during the summer. That's why I'm staying put this year.

 

Not sure about the water conservation. if the pair had taken their place in the queue, behind the waiting boats, had they gone aground during the night, as seems likely from what has been said, then the boats in front of them working up the locks would have let water down to refloat them, surely. No need to run water off the sumit, or am I missing something?

 

haggis

[alan_fincher]

Which dropped a foot overnight, possibly because the gates had not been closed further down by the last boats up.

Far more likely its because it drops overnight every night, irrespective of whether both sets of gates are shut at the next lock.

 

As I understand it BW are well aware that pond is leaking badly, but have been unable to stop it.

 

Perhaps why it would be unwise to let two heavy boats ground to one side, then need to run down loads of water to re-float them next morning ?

[koukouvagia]

Not sure about the water conservation. if the pair had taken their place in the queue, behind the waiting boats, had they gone aground during the night, as seems likely from what has been said, then the boats in front of them working up the locks would have let water down to refloat them, surely. No need to run water off the sumit, or am I missing something?

 

haggis

 

Depends how many in the queue there were. Most mornings before the drought, BW were running water off the summit for a good hour to top up the Dudswell pound.

[alan_fincher]

Not sure about the water conservation. if the pair had taken their place in the queue, behind the waiting boats, had they gone aground during the night, as seems likely from what has been said, then the boats in front of them working up the locks would have let water down to refloat them, surely. No need to run water off the sumit, or am I missing something?

 

haggis

Well, if it dropped a foot overnight, as Dominic is saying, there would have needed to be a very large number of boats ahead to put a foot of water into the pound that runs all the way down to Dudswell.

 

This isn't aimed at you (!), but I find it ironic that quite a few people have said "you don't have the local knowledge", but that Archimedes, in particular is a boat trading locally where the crew have far more local knowledge than many commenting. I certainly don't want to fall out with Dominic, but by his own admission, I think, he has not travelled this stretch in many years, so may not be aware of its current local issues ?

[haggis]

Well, if it dropped a foot overnight, as Dominic is saying, there would have needed to be a very large number of boats ahead to put a foot of water into the pound that runs all the way down to Dudswell.

 

This isn't aimed at you (!), but I find it ironic that quite a few people have said "you don't have the local knowledge", but that Archimedes, in particular is a boat trading locally where the crew have far more local knowledge than many commenting. I certainly don't want to fall out with Dominic, but by his own admission, I think, he has not travelled this stretch in many years, so may not be aware of its current local issues ?

 

I realise that I have no local knowledge, only having boated that stretch about half a dozen times in the last 30 years, but I was puzzled by the comment I referred to. I am now better informed and will crawl back into my kennel :-)

I appreciate that your comment wasn't just aimed at me :-)

haggis

[Higgs]

Wether the two boats in the lock had local knowledge and the waiting boats hadn't. Woundn't common courtesy have dictated that the owner of the two locked boats speak to the other boaters and explain the situation. Did this happen? The other way around would have been confrontational.

[alan_fincher]

It REALLY wasn't aimed at you.

 

Yours was a reasonable enough question.

 

And, if it was stated anywhere exactly how many boats it is believed were waiting ahead of Archimedes and Emu, then I admit I have missed it, but am probably not going to trawl through all the posts again.

 

I'm not trying to defend either side, because I wasn't there, but I can see reasons that could explain a lot of this that go beyond just the standard complaints of "people being pretend working boaters", (which clearly isn't true of at least one of the boats - it may be "on holiday" here, but it does trade for a living, and its skipper is a boatman by profession).

 

Anyway, time to go and start moving my working boat in a few minutes - I'm expecting flak now!

[Dominic M]

This is not about local knowledge. It is about courtesy.

 

The two boats turn up after dusk. They know that other boats are waiting, some for several days, to pass through Cowroast lock. The reason they know this is that they are told so. They moor overnight in the lock chamber because the pound is down. By morning the pound has dropped a lot further, leaving every waiting boat aground. The owners of the boats that have waited there for several days say that this has not happened previously, so if the pound is leaking badly, it is a new leak! Whatever.

 

What happens next: the two boats reverse out of the lock chamber, realising that others are in front of them in the queue. They offer a line to some the grounded boats to try and snatch them back afloat. No they didn't. They simply used the lock and disappeared off along the Tring summit.

 

What then happened: a boat locks up into the short pound (about 600 yards at a guess) below Cowroast, gets to us, and offers a line, which pulled us free. The first boat has managed with some effort to get free as well. I then offer a line to the next grounded boat and pull them free.

 

That is courtesy, and decency, and what I like about boating. You help each other out. I wasn't angry about the behaviour of Archimedes and Emu; others waiting there were less sanguine. But I do think it was pretty poor behaviour, and very inconsiderate.

[tug-major]

U just don't get it do you u got keep going on yea we did stay over Night the lock but we try to get it to the side and I got 10ton of coal on so the best think for me to do it's say in the locks and it was good for us to get up the cos how bad it's been with water ,,,,, but u was ok that Nigjt u come up to see us but then we all gone u post all this about us it's just bad news that's all your trying to tel eveone end of the day we lot deep in the water then u and we have got alot of time for overs that's my job as well as doing coal all over the canal and rivers might see u on the way back then we can have a nice chat about this then u name and shame r boats over the net !!!

[Mick_B]

It certainly does appear that the only "real" problem here was:

1/ Lack of communication

2/ Lack of courtesy

 

 

Anyway I have found this thread an enjoyable read and one of the best for ages...

 

:cheers:

[BenC]

This is not about local knowledge. It is about courtesy.

 

The two boats turn up after dusk. They know that other boats are waiting, some for several days, to pass through Cowroast lock. The reason they know this is that they are told so. They moor overnight in the lock chamber because the pound is down. By morning the pound has dropped a lot further, leaving every waiting boat aground. The owners of the boats that have waited there for several days say that this has not happened previously, so if the pound is leaking badly, it is a new leak! Whatever.

 

What happens next: the two boats reverse out of the lock chamber, realising that others are in front of them in the queue. They offer a line to some the grounded boats to try and snatch them back afloat. No they didn't. They simply used the lock and disappeared off along the Tring summit.

 

What then happened: a boat locks up into the short pound (about 600 yards at a guess) below Cowroast, gets to us, and offers a line, which pulled us free. The first boat has managed with some effort to get free as well. I then offer a line to the next grounded boat and pull them free.

 

That is courtesy, and decency, and what I like about boating. You help each other out. I wasn't angry about the behaviour of Archimedes and Emu; others waiting there were less sanguine. But I do think it was pretty poor behaviour, and very inconsiderate.

 

I don't even want to get involved with this, but I can't help myself.

Firstly that pound leaks very badly, has for a while. People are known to open a paddle so that the pound stays full over night, letting the summit drop so that Darren at Cow Roast marina is unable to get boats onto hard standing.

Secondly, if I look ahead and see free lock bollards and an empty lock ahead of me, in a shallow pound with a boat the draws 3ft or more then I head for the lock, especially if its open!

The next morning if the pound had dropped overnight, there would have been no point in trying to back out to pull boats off the bottom, as they would have been stuck fast, better to use the water from that lock and get the day started rather than cause any more hold ups.

Should the original boats at the front of the queue not have been waiting in the lock or at least been on the bollards!

Edited March 30, 2012 by BenC

[Chris Pink]

it's a lot of bloody fuss about one pair of boats getting in front of some others. What are we talking about here?

 

...an extra delay of 15 minutes.

 

As has been said, some of those boats had been there for days, what's an extra 15 minutes?

 

 

Some consideration would have been nice...

 

from the leisure boaters who have absolutely no empathy for what it's like to get to the end of a day in a heavy pair of boats and find nowhere to put them except in a lock.

 

It's not a great way to spend the night, people don't do it through choice.

 

Some courtesy would have been nice...

 

a quick moan and then forget about it rather than making a meal of it on an public forum.

 

I suggest the moaners go down to their nearest petrol station and indulge in some road rage as a motorcyclist breezes past their stupid queues.

 

 

..and they don't pay council tax

 

Lock rage is the most stupid and petty thing I have ever come across.

[sheriff]

Ok just to clear this matter up..I went to hatton flight yesterday at noon and watched archimedes and co go up the hatton flight,I was there with a friend who gave me a lift for the day for some sight seeing.

 

we was watching the boats for the whole of the flight,every lock gate was shut and paddles was returned to the down position.

 

We went to lapworth flight around 3pm and observed from a distance every lock gate shut and paddles returned to down postion,if i had seen/observed otherwise then i would say so.

 

there you are..

[carlt]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. These are obviously genuinely working boatmen.

 

Absolutely!

 

One of them had the audacity to come to the main entrance, the other day!

 

"Tradesman's entrance for you, you ignorant oik." I said, as I sent him on his way.

 

His response was barely intelligible, obviously lacking grammar lessons and routine sodomy, in his workhouse schoolroom.

Edited March 31, 2012 by Theo
Insensitive comment removed