cotswoldsman Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Time we did another diesel price topic!! 0.99ppl at The Red Lion at Scarisbrick so not much longer until we hit the £1 ppl............ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naughty Cal Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 £1.19 (60/40) at Burton Waters. Needless to say we dont buy it from there. £0.78 at Bramley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dor Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Current base price at Nantwich Canal Centre is a very reasonable 80ppl. The Llangollen is something else though! Swanley is 97ppl and Viking at Whitchurch is 99ppl. Biggest p*sstake though has to be the Marina at Ellesmere which were charging 110ppl. These prices are all the base price, i.e. "heating" rate. I wonder if part of this is that because they operate hire fleets, they refill returning boats and bill for diesel used. If so then if you are hiring and your hirer charges for diesel used, check what they charge and fill up somewhere more reasonable while you are out. Edited March 22, 2012 by dor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keeping Up Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 £1.19 (60/40) at Burton Waters. Needless to say we dont buy it from there. £0.78 at Bramley Where is Bramley? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naughty Cal Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Where is Bramley? Junction 1 of the M18 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Time we did another diesel price topic!! 0.99ppl at The Red Lion at Scarisbrick so not much longer until we hit the £1 ppl............ 97p at Sawley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickhlx Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) I will be doing the research soon to top up around here ( K and A near Reading) Could someone remind me / confirm what the current uplift "formula" is between heating and propulsion rates ? I am not sure what ratio I will need to declare as I haven't worked it out yet. Also, is pump diesel now all with a proportion of Bio, or are some outlets still supplying without, as we are relatively low propulsion users and it will sit in the tank for a long time, so would prefer to avoid a more hygroscopic fuel.. Thanks, Nick Edited March 22, 2012 by Nickhlx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I will be doing the research soon to top up around here ( K and A near Reading) Could someone remind me / confirm what the current uplift "formula" is between heating and propulsion rates ? I am not sure what ratio I will need to declare as I haven't worked it out yet. Also, is pump diesel now all with a proportion of Bio, or are some outlets still supplying without, as we are relatively low propulsion users and it will sit in the tank for a long time, so would prefer to avoid a more hygroscopic fuel.. Thanks, Nick Hi As of yet this farce has not been challenged in court but lets say you need to charge your batteries for 2 hours on a particular day and your only means of charging is by the boats diesel propulsion engine. You set off and move the boat at the same time the engine is being used for charging.....what does the law ( unchallenged ) state ? you are genuinely charging your domestic batteries but also moving even though the real reason is to charge the batteris. Whats the concensus of opinion ? Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chalky Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Hi As of yet this farce has not been challenged in court but lets say you need to charge your batteries for 2 hours on a particular day and your only means of charging is by the boats diesel propulsion engine. You set off and move the boat at the same time the engine is being used for charging.....what does the law ( unchallenged ) state ? you are genuinely charging your domestic batteries but also moving even though the real reason is to charge the batteris. Whats the concensus of opinion ? Tim I wondered that' I've also got a plate heat exchanger that extracts heat from the coolant to run a couple of rads. Does that mean I can claim a different split since more of my energy is going to heating? Has anyone done any detailed calculations on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GUMPY Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Hi As of yet this farce has not been challenged in court but lets say you need to charge your batteries for 2 hours on a particular day and your only means of charging is by the boats diesel propulsion engine. You set off and move the boat at the same time the engine is being used for charging.....what does the law ( unchallenged ) state ? you are genuinely charging your domestic batteries but also moving even though the real reason is to charge the batteris. Whats the concensus of opinion ? Tim Its propulsion nothing more nothing less. If you feel like taking on HMRC let us know so we can laugh at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wonderdust Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Hi As of yet this farce has not been challenged in court but lets say you need to charge your batteries for 2 hours on a particular day and your only means of charging is by the boats diesel propulsion engine. You set off and move the boat at the same time the engine is being used for charging.....what does the law ( unchallenged ) state ? you are genuinely charging your domestic batteries but also moving even though the real reason is to charge the batteris. Whats the concensus of opinion ? Tim Why do you have to move to charge the batteries? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thewatchmaker Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Current base price at Nantwich Canal Centre is a very reasonable 80ppl. The Llangollen is something else though! Swanley is 97ppl and Viking at Whitchurch is 99ppl. Biggest p*sstake though has to be the Marina at Ellesmere which were charging 110ppl. These prices are all the base price, i.e. "heating" rate. I wonder if part of this is that because they operate hire fleets, they refill returning boats and bill for diesel used. If so then if you are hiring and your hirer charges for diesel used, check what they charge and fill up somewhere more reasonable while you are out. Whitchurch marina sell F.A.M.E free diesel others don't hence price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottle Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Its propulsion nothing more nothing less. If you feel like taking on HMRC let us know so we can laugh at you. Not quite some of the energy used whilst charging the batteries just happens to move the boat. Why do you have to move to charge the batteries? You do not but in mrsmelly's scenario he is charging his batteries with the alternator(s) and the engine just happens to be in gear. ps, where is my wooden spoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrsmelly Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Its propulsion nothing more nothing less. If you feel like taking on HMRC let us know so we can laugh at you. Thanks for the swift and obviously stupid reply from someone whos knowledge of how the British legal system works is even more obviously less than that of an omeba. It is a perfectly honest question yes of course the boat is being propelled but as we are allowed to declare our useage split until anything is challenged such as the dreamed up 60/40 split in a court the result of what the outcome would be is certainly open for debate. Until such time as you have enough decorum to think about your answer go and polish your mushroom vents thats more your level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pearley Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 £1.19 (60/40) at Burton Waters. Needless to say we dont buy it from there. £0.78 at Bramley Where's Bramley? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naughty Cal Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Where's Bramley? Junction 1 of the M18. (Shall I just put this answer onto my clip board ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jelunga Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Whitchurch marina sell F.A.M.E free diesel others don't hence price. BWML at Sawley also do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jelunga Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 (edited) Thanks for the swift and obviously stupid reply from someone whos knowledge of how the British legal system works is even more obviously less than that of an omeba. It is a perfectly honest question yes of course the boat is being propelled but as we are allowed to declare our useage split until anything is challenged such as the dreamed up 60/40 split in a court the result of what the outcome would be is certainly open for debate. Until such time as you have enough decorum to think about your answer go and polish your mushroom vents thats more your level. One the late Mike Stevens' web site he posted a detailed letter he had sent in during the consultation before the intro of the new red diesel tax regime. In it he recorded how much energy was used b y him for propulsion and other uses. He was a continuous cruiser iirc. Overall, he had calculated that just 11% of his fuel useage was actually for propulsion. The rest was battery charging, heat generation for water and wasted heat. That is what he declared and was not challenged. When we are moored in the marina over winter I buy and use 0% propulsion as permitted by law. When out cruising I tend to declare 25 -30% propulsion depending how long we stopped in one place. Our engine provides charging for the battery and inverter system, hot water whilst cruising. When moored we have heating from the eberspacher which draws fuel off the main tank and provides heating and hot water. The bubble stove draws off a seperate tank and that is always filled at 0% propulsion. Edited to correct spalling now I have found my glasses Edited March 22, 2012 by jelunga Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Wgen moored we have geating from the eberspacger Whatever you've been drinking, I'll have one, please! Seriously, your point is well made. An additional point about which I am puzzled is that to give a fair declaration means that a boater has to be clairvoyant. When we take on diesel it may last us for weeks or even months. We do not know at that time how long we'll spend moored with the engine running (0%), under way (more % but, as you explain, not 100%) or something in between (e.g. the stop-start-stop of going through a flight of locks). I am unsure of how I'm supposed to calculate propulsion use, so I just say 20%/ 80% and hope that it is about right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jelunga Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Wgen moored we have geating from the eberspacger Whatever you've been drinking, I'll have one, please! Seriously, your point is well made. An additional point about which I am puzzled is that to give a fair declaration means that a boater has to be clairvoyant. When we take on diesel it may last us for weeks or even months. We do not know at that time how long we'll spend moored with the engine running (0%), under way (more % but, as you explain, not 100%) or something in between (e.g. the stop-start-stop of going through a flight of locks). I am unsure of how I'm supposed to calculate propulsion use, so I just say 20%/ 80% and hope that it is about right. See my correct spalling! I agree. And I think HMRC agree which is why they were reluctant to apply this tax in the first place and why I have not heard of any enforcement action being taken against boaters for misdeckarations. Has anybody else any reference? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickhlx Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 See my correct spalling! I agree. And I think HMRC agree which is why they were reluctant to apply this tax in the first place and why I have not heard of any enforcement action being taken against boaters for misdeckarations. Has anybody else any reference? The fine seems to be £250 or 5% of the duty shortfall whichever is greater, in the event of getting it wrong - I am sure the time/work involved to check out any but the biggest easiest cases to get a conviction against would just not be worth it for them, and they perhaps had to be seen to be doing something by our EU lords and masters.. I think it would have been / will be headline news if / when someone gets caught, so I also do not think anyone has yet - if someone uses even 1000 litres and declares 80/20 instead of 60/40 there is only approx £87 of duty shortfall involved, so it's not worth their trouble (or the end user's risk) of miscalculating for the sake of a £250 fine ! Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Yes, Nick, and how on earth will they prove that a declaration is false? Even if a boater decared 0% propulsion on his last fill-up and is caught moving the boat, he can say that he's using up the gallon which was left in the tank from the previous fill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valrene9600 Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 HMRC will prosecute a business for VAT mis payments because the business is required by law to keep records so the offence is more traceable. How do HMRC prosecute a boater based only on figures and declarations at a boatyard when the boater might well have purchased extra fuel say at Tesco canalside. As the boater is not required to keep records what could HMRC base their prosecution. Answer in my opinion;They won`t bother, they have better things to do so fill the boat, declare what you will(don`t give them to much) and enjoy your boating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickhlx Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 Yes, Nick, and how on earth will they prove that a declaration is false? Even if a boater decared 0% propulsion on his last fill-up and is caught moving the boat, he can say that he's using up the gallon which was left in the tank from the previous fill. Quite ! Nearly all the fuel used in the last 5 months has been keeping the frost at bay and only one trip of around 4 hours (5 litres) since about November - I do need to get out more... Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Athy Posted March 22, 2012 Report Share Posted March 22, 2012 I suppose the boatyard will think you're taking the michael when you decare 1% propulsion next time you buy diesel! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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