Vintage Engines

[Joshua]

I am going to buy a boat with a vintage engine so have been doing some research, I had a look at the vintage engine section of this forum and note that the Lister group is far and away the most active.

Is this because:

the Lister is most popular?

the most unreliable?

or is this forum not representative of the ‘real world’?

 

Cheers,

 

Joshua

[journeyperson]

I am going to buy a boat with a vintage engine so have been doing some research, I had a look at the vintage engine section of this forum and note that the Lister group is far and away the most active.

Is this because:

A. the Lister is most popular?

B. the most unreliable?

or C. is this forum not representative of the 'real world'?

 

Cheers,

 

Joshua

 

C.

[by'eck]

As I understand it after two stroke diesel single cylinder Bolinders, the cold start Lister diesel twins (JP2's) were the popular choice in working boats from their introduction in the early 30's.

 

Lister was a prolific manufacturer & given their reliability & longevity many still survive in narrowboats new as well as old with both JP & the newer (but still regarded as vintage) air & water-cooled twins & triples as popular choices.

 

Gardner is probably the next most popular vintage diesel choice in current boats.

[paddy r]

You pay's your money and you............

[Speedwheel]

As I understand it after two stroke diesel single cylinder Bolinders, the cold start Lister diesel twins (JP2's) were the popular choice in working boats from their introduction in the early 30's.

 

Really? National, RN, Armstrong Siddeley and Petter I would all have put ahead of Lister JP's. Later on the Listers, particular HAs and HRs, certainly became popular with BW.

Edited August 24, 2011 by Speedwheel

[Gibbo]

D. Lister owners make more noise.

[David Mack]

The Lister name has continued in existence for longer than most of the rest, although the company has long been owned by others, so it is not surprising that there are more Lister engines about.

 

David

[sebrof]

There are lots of Listers about because:

 

A Many were made, and

B Many are still going strong.

 

They are economical and very reliable, and spares are not (much of) a problem.

 

Gardners are great, too.

 

Other engines may be less easy to find bits for.

 

There are lots of Listers about because:

 

A Many were made, and

B Many are still going strong.

 

They are economical and very reliable, and spares are not (much of) a problem.

 

Gardners are great, too.

 

Other engines may be less easy to find bits for.

[LEO]

D. Lister owners make more noise.

 

......and their engines make more exhaust smoke.

 

Leo.

Edited August 25, 2011 by LEO

[by'eck]

D. Lister owners make more noise.

 

Noise? what noise

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

2 pot Listers air cooled are popular on dumper trucks and for site work because you cannot kill them. Leave them running on a drain pump and fill the fuel tank once a week and put some oil in now and then. However if you want comfort and not be deafened and look like a nodding dog with the vibration!!! Water-cooled is good and Gardeners although very expensive are a sweet running motor. Some water-cooled Listers are sweet sounding we have a 1953 FR water-cooled 2 pot. Look at the boat has it been well looked after? is it by a good shell maker has it a good swim if it is built like a brick then any engine will struggle to make it move. look for service history as a engine with dirty oil will wear badly.

[Joshua]

Where do Kelvin’s feature in the big picture?

I like the look of them, they sound right and I believe they have a good long marine history but I noticed they haven’t featured yet.

What’s wrong with them?

 

I suppose in wanting a vintage engine I am looking for something like my partner, a companion that likes to be told how much she is loved and that behaves badly when neglected, that goes about her work with a sweet sing song not a nagging grumble.

That is not too expensive to maintain and is powerful enough to deal with strong river currents without too much fuss (I don’t think my partner can do that last thing).

 

I hadn’t thought about vibrations, can this be dealt with by proper tuning and installation or are some engines just rough, come what may?

 

Cheers,

 

Joshua

[flatplane8]

Where do Kelvin’s feature in the big picture?

I like the look of them, they sound right and I believe they have a good long marine history but I noticed they haven’t featured yet.

What’s wrong with them?

 

I suppose in wanting a vintage engine I am looking for something like my partner, a companion that likes to be told how much she is loved and that behaves badly when neglected, that goes about her work with a sweet sing song not a nagging grumble.

That is not too expensive to maintain and is powerful enough to deal with strong river currents without too much fuss (I don’t think my partner can do that last thing).

 

I hadn’t thought about vibrations, can this be dealt with by proper tuning and installation or are some engines just rough, come what may?

 

Cheers,

 

Joshua

 

Kelvins are fine, just not at numerous. One Kelvin marine business has written a book about various engines suitable for narrowboats. Interesting reading and only £21.

[Timleech]

Where do Kelvin’s feature in the big picture?

I like the look of them, they sound right and I believe they have a good long marine history but I noticed they haven’t featured yet.

What’s wrong with them?

 

I suppose in wanting a vintage engine I am looking for something like my partner, a companion that likes to be told how much she is loved and that behaves badly when neglected, that goes about her work with a sweet sing song not a nagging grumble.

That is not too expensive to maintain and is powerful enough to deal with strong river currents without too much fuss (I don’t think my partner can do that last thing).

 

I hadn’t thought about vibrations, can this be dealt with by proper tuning and installation or are some engines just rough, come what may?

 

Cheers,

 

Joshua

 

Kelvins don't have any real history as Narrow Boat engines, they were made originally very much for the fishing boat market. In later years they concentrated on their bigger engines, going up to around 500 bhp. As already said, they are not as numerous as some others, and some of their 'classic' designs are 'a bit different', with oddities such as petrol start which would put some people off.

 

They did make some very good engines, though.

 

Tim

[hughc]

If you want a Kelvin, and which vintage engine enthusiast would not, we have a J3 full petrol start for sale. If this is of interest please PM me.Regards, HughC.

[koukouvagia]

Where do Kelvin's feature in the big picture?

 

I've had a Kelvin K2 in our boat for over twelve years. In all that time I've only had two problems – a nut shattered in the water pump and I needed the magneto refurbishing. It's been utterly reliable and like all Kelvins is much admired for its brass and copper pipework.

 

When justifying the expense to OH, I pointed out how simple the engine would be to work in comparison to the Seffle it replaced. "Just think, no more blowlamps, simply a turn of a key to start." As OH pointed out later, there are over 20 things I have to do before turning the key.

 

And this is the reason that Kelvins are an acquired taste. Phil Trotter who has rebuilt many Kelvins says that people put them in boats because they like the looks and the sound, but don't realise that it is not like a fit and forget modern engine. Some simply swap the engine, but in one case someone decided that he didn't like the idiosyncratic Kelvin gearbox and replaced it with a modern one, ruining the end of the crankshaft in the process.

 

Another reason why Kelvins are not so well known is that, in comparison with Listers and Gardners, comparatively few were made. I think I'm right in saying that only were only 800 or so K2s.

 

 

Edited to add a Youtube clip on how to start a Kelvin which I made so that OH could start it if she had to!

Edited August 25, 2011 by koukouvagia

[Joshua]

Thanks for the book recommendation, I don’t have an ebay account but have no doubt someone in my family will have and I’ll get it ordered.

The book will probably answer all my questions, if not I’ll be back!

hughc - re engine offer, I need to complete my homework first but have noted your contact details for the future ta.

and koukouvagia - for sharing your experience, not least via youtube, I had actually seen your clip before, while trawling youtube for vintage engine videos. Very informative.

 

I appreciate that there is a world of difference between managing a vintage engine and a run of the mill diesel. I was brought up on car and bike restorations, I sat my driving test in my first car, a 1957 403 Bristol which I rebuilt from boxes and the first bike I ever rode was my fathers Vincent Rapide.

Come to think of it, the Rapide sounded a bit like a vintage marine engine, so big were the pistons that even at 100 mph, I swear you could still clearly count the individual strokes!

 

Cheers,

 

Joshua

[sebrof]

......and their engines make more exhaust smoke.

 

Leo.

 

Not if they are properly looked after.

[alan_fincher]

As I understand it after two stroke diesel single cylinder Bolinders, the cold start Lister diesel twins (JP2's) were the popular choice in working boats from their introduction in the early 30's.

I believe you are very wrong.

 

I think that there would have been very little likelihood of significant use Lister JPs in use anything like as long ago as that.

 

Their use is generally, (but not exclusively) a modern thing that post-dates proper commercial narrow boat carrying.

 

But anyone who has a JP probably prefers to think as you do.

[Athy]

One thing which you should know about Kelvins, Joshua, is that they are bloomin' enormous. Our esteemed fellow-forum member Alnwick has one (J3 I think) in his narrowboat - in about a third of his narrowboat, in fact. So much will depend on how much space you are willing to dedicate to your engine. We have a Gardner 2LW in a five-foot long engine room and there is a bit of space each end of the engine.

On our recent cruise on the Oxford we kept meeting a most handsome tug called 'Thor' which had a separate engine room and which emitted a most pleasing noise. When I looked into the engine room, there sat a comparatively small Lister SR2, apparently providing ample power for the 50-foot boat.

[Timleech]

One thing which you should know about Kelvins, Joshua, is that they are bloomin' enormous. Our esteemed fellow-forum member Alnwick has one (J3 I think) in his narrowboat - in about a third of his narrowboat, in fact. So much will depend on how much space you are willing to dedicate to your engine. We have a Gardner 2LW in a five-foot long engine room and there is a bit of space each end of the engine.

On our recent cruise on the Oxford we kept meeting a most handsome tug called 'Thor' which had a separate engine room and which emitted a most pleasing noise. When I looked into the engine room, there sat a comparatively small Lister SR2, apparently providing ample power for the 50-foot boat.

 

Granted the K engines are enormous, in narrow boat terms, but I don't think the Js are much different in size from other popular older engines, albeit with rather less power per cylinder than most.

 

Tim

[flatplane8]

I believe you are very wrong.

 

I think that there would have been very little likelihood of significant use Lister JPs in use anything like as long ago as that.

 

Their use is generally, (but not exclusively) a modern thing that post-dates proper commercial narrow boat carrying.

 

But anyone who has a JP probably prefers to think as you do.

 

Not a narrowboat, but when Misterton had an engine put in in 1948 it was a Lister JP3M, and the JP2/3s were quite popular at the time when putting engines into the barges round the Humber.

[Joshua]

One thing which you should know about Kelvins, Joshua, is that they are bloomin' enormous. Our esteemed fellow-forum member Alnwick has one (J3 I think) in his narrowboat - in about a third of his narrowboat, in fact. So much will depend on how much space you are willing to dedicate to your engine. We have a Gardner 2LW in a five-foot long engine room and there is a bit of space each end of the engine.

On our recent cruise on the Oxford we kept meeting a most handsome tug called 'Thor' which had a separate engine room and which emitted a most pleasing noise. When I looked into the engine room, there sat a comparatively small Lister SR2, apparently providing ample power for the 50-foot boat.

 

Ah yes, athy, I haven’t yet found the courage to discuss this with my darling partner, she knows I want another mate onboard, so to speak, and she knows it has to have its own room.

What I haven’t yet explained is quite how big a room it’s going to need.

I have a cunning plan.

So far I have got her to see the sense in not having a washing machine, how lots of unused living space will be costly to heat, that an engine room will make a useful drying room and place to store wet dog walking equipment, that it will be a place where she can send me when she wants a bit of space to herself etc etc, by the time I am finished she will be begging me to get a dirty great Kelvin.

What do you think?

Oh dear, just how nice was that little Lister.

 

Joshua

[Athy]

Cunning indeed! But the Kelvin of which I speak (perhaps J3 is not its correct name) left little room for people, wet clothing or damp dogs except perhaps chihuahuas - it's a gorgeous beast, most impressive, but literally reached almost to the rooff.

The SR2 was very nice - it sounded so convincing that I was was surprised, on looking into the engine room, not to see something bigger. Another choice of similar size would be a Petter PH2, we had a 1969 example on our first boat and it never went wrong. Lister/Petter actually still make the PH2, but not in a marine guise, this may mean that spares for the older ones will be easy to get hold of.

[Timleech]

Not a narrowboat, but when Misterton had an engine put in in 1948 it was a Lister JP3M, and the JP2/3s were quite popular at the time when putting engines into the barges round the Humber.

 

Yes there were lots of them on and around the Humber. Also I was told that the 6/66 (JP6) was popular for a while in continental barges before they moved on to bigger things.

 

I think Alan is right, though, that the JP wasn't a common engine for working Narrow Boats.

 

Tim