Legionnaires Disease, a warning

[Bobbybass]

Just a warning to those who are not liveaboard and are recommisioning their boat.

I am not medically trained and this is just based on my own nasty experience.

 

This time last year while getting my boat up and running I developed a horrible cough. I thought it would go away but it didn't...it got worse..I started to feel lousy and then I had horrible night sweats where I woke up and we had to change all the sheets because they...and I ...were ringing wet.

I went to see my GP and he said it was probably bronchitus and gave me steroids.

It got worse...and eventually I walked into A&E in Rugby hospital...within an hour I was on oxygen...and in a bed !

I was like a pin cushion...and had other 'more invasive' tests...

It was eventually diagnosed as Legionnella...which had turned to pneumonia.

I was very unwell !!

 

The hospital didn't offer any ideas of where it came from..but I started looking it up.

During last year there was a warning about car windscreen washers..that are a big source in UK. This was because many people caught it in Wales last year...

Something like...18 people caught it from garden centre compost.

 

Many people don't know they have it..they think they have some nasty flu...and it goes away on its own...but if you are elderly or have some illness (I am diabetic)...it may prove extreme or fatal.

 

In many cases...it can lurk in old water in shower pipes...and you turn it on...put your head under it...and breathe it straight in...!

I think this is what happened to me.

 

I am going to be thoroughly flushing the system with Miltons before I fill properly..

 

I have posted this here..because I don't want anyone else goes through this.

 

Bob

[Naughty Cal]

Sounds very nasty.

 

We have started to add water sterilising tablets to our water tank which should hopefully kill any nasties in there but we also sterilise the tank at the beginning of each year with a flush through with a weak Milton solution.

 

Another use we have found for Milton is getting rid of mildew on shower curtains. Make up a weak solution ina spray bottle, spray it on, leave for 15 minutes then rinse. Works wonders.

[Sunset Rising]

Is DeanS reading this ???

[Bobbybass]

Sounds very nasty.

 

We have started to add water sterilising tablets to our water tank which should hopefully kill any nasties in there but we also sterilise the tank at the beginning of each year with a flush through with a weak Milton solution.

 

Another use we have found for Milton is getting rid of mildew on shower curtains. Make up a weak solution ina spray bottle, spray it on, leave for 15 minutes then rinse. Works wonders.

Hi...

 

I found that...the Miltons was great...but it would come back fairly soon.

I made a film (not narrowboats...a health thing)... there was an epidemiologist (try saying that after a few pints !)

He said that mildew is very resistant to bleach and although you may kill some of it...you basically turn it white and it can still live (Bloody stuff)

He said..."Clove oil"...in a little bottle from a chemist..

He said this is one of the main..cheap things to kill it and prevent it coming back.

I tried this...I use an old CIF bottle (I found it can rust the spring if you use others)

I mix a little washing up liquid to dilute...as its an oil...with warm water..

 

We then spray it about (smells nice too)

We leave the boat for about 5 months a year...and the mildew doesn't appear..

 

Seems to work.

 

Bob

Edited March 24, 2011 by Bobbybass

[Theo]

We have used thin bleach as a means of maintaining the chlorine levels in the water tank ever since WW did an article on water purification some time in 2007, I think. During the Grand Tour of 2008 (9 months cruising) we put about 20ml thin bleach into the tank of about 900 litres (It's a big tank!). I have been doubling that at the beginning of a cruise when Theodora has been idle for a while. I think that I will quadruple it in future.

 

A very timely warning. Thank you.

 

Nick

[Proper Job]

Legionella bacteria is found in many sources of water from puddles to water pipes.

 

It is only harmful when:

The concentration of bacteria is high

• 
   
  
• The water that contains it is atomised/aerosol (droplets in the air)
  
• It is breathed in
  
• It can be chemically controlled or killed off by temperature.
  

 

The ideal 'breeding conditions are 20 to 45 degrees C

 

Obviously in boats, when systems have not been used for a while (even during the week - take note weekend boater) and its warm, levels of bacteria can build up.

 

The highest risk area is the shower. Blast it through with hot water and minimise the 'spraying' around whilst doing this will help

[Bimbly1]

Legionella bacteria is found in many sources of water from puddles to water pipes.

 

It is only harmful when:

The concentration of bacteria is high

• 
   
  
• The water that contains it is atomised/aerosol (droplets in the air)
  
• It is breathed in
  
• It can be chemically controlled or killed off by temperature.
  

 

The ideal 'breeding conditions are 20 to 45 degrees C

 

Obviously in boats, when systems have not been used for a while (even during the week - take note weekend boater) and its warm, levels of bacteria can build up.

 

The highest risk area is the shower. Blast it through with hot water and minimise the 'spraying' around whilst doing this will help

 

That is why land-based water systems have to store hot water at >60C and thermostatic outlets fitted to protect from scalding.

 

I would have thought that most boat calorifiers heat to more that 60C but with usage being intermittent, and hot pipes susceptible to heat loss, there are plenty of places for bacterium to colonise.

 

A blast through with piping hot from the tank prior to a shower should do the trick.

[NB Lola]

Excellent post, I shall get me miltons and clove oil tomorrow!

[Proper Job]

Another thing to note is, legionella bacteria need food to multiply.

 

This is usually found in the form of other bacteria, sludge or scale. This is why it's important to keep the system clean and decale taps/shower heads.

[Chertsey]

Excellent post, I shall get me miltons and clove oil tomorrow!

Milton is only sodium hypochlorite solution, exactly the same stuff as THIN bleach but at a weaker dilution and many times the price.

[NB Lola]

Mp doubt my biochem missus will also put me right in about 40 mins lol

 

Thanks

[Graham Davis]

During last year there was a warning about car windscreen washers..that are a big source in UK. This was because many people caught it in Wales last year...

 

Being as this was close to home, I have checked up on this and there was nothing mentioned in the official report about windscreen washers causing the "outbreak" in the Merthyr area last year. It was a "scare story" promulgated by a few ill-informed people.

 

Something like...18 people caught it from garden centre compost.

 

Really? Can you tell me where this was? I can find NO report of such an incident.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Graham Davis

[Bobbybass]

Being as this was close to home, I have checked up on this and there was nothing mentioned in the official report about windscreen washers causing the "outbreak" in the Merthyr area last year. It was a "scare story" promulgated by a few ill-informed people.

 

 

 

Really? Can you tell me where this was? I can find NO report of such an incident.

 

Who mentioned Merthyr..?

Have you been to Specsavers..?

 

Legionella is difficult to backtrack to...as I 'understand it'

I may have 'missunderstood it'...but then I did say that on my original post !!

As 'appears' to be the case..doctors frequently miss the symptoms...as in my case..

If you look at the following links they express concern and advice...and mainly 'attribute to'

Severel of the following links are from the NHS...so as you say...I guess they are an organistion who is 'ill-informed' in your words.

 

Link...from the NHS

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2010/06June/Pages/Legionnaires-risk-from-wiper-water.aspx

 

This was from Wales Online ( do they have computers in Wales ..?...11 cases..)

 

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2010/09/07/outbreak-of-legionnaires-disease-in-south-wales-91466-27221203/

 

Or Gardeners :

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1021542/How-catch-deadly-legionnaires-disease-garden-compost.html

 

Windscreens :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/14/legionnaires-disease-water-wiper-risk

 

Not proved...or dissproved..

You wanna go through what I went through..?

I added this to the forum..because...for the cost of a bottle of Miltons it may stop someone else going through it...

 

Give it a go...but don't endanger the people who may spend 5 minutes sterilising their water system and save bad health or even death .

Edited March 25, 2011 by Bobbybass

[Richard T]

Control of legionnaires/legionella is a major problem in public buildings especially hospitals. An area that they are very careful with is minimising the length of ' dead legs' in water systems. Lessons can be learnt from this in boats - keep pipes feeding showers and taps from the main supply pipe as short as possible. Keep your water system clean and sterilise regularly. I prefer to have thermostatic mixing valves at or close to the point of use as pssible rather than having a single valve near to the calorifier. This is more expensive but means that water at usually more than 60deg C circulates the hot water sytstem rather than the 43deg C which most TMV are set to ( this is the hospital temp where there are patients). On my boat the hot water regularly gets to over 80deg C which helps destroy bacteria.

[Bobbybass]

Control of legionnaires/legionella is a major problem in public buildings especially hospitals. An area that they are very careful with is minimising the length of ' dead legs' in water systems. Lessons can be learnt from this in boats - keep pipes feeding showers and taps from the main supply pipe as short as possible. Keep your water system clean and sterilise regularly. I prefer to have thermostatic mixing valves at or close to the point of use as pssible rather than having a single valve near to the calorifier. This is more expensive but means that water at usually more than 60deg C circulates the hot water sytstem rather than the 43deg C which most TMV are set to ( this is the hospital temp where there are patients). On my boat the hot water regularly gets to over 80deg C which helps destroy bacteria.

Hi Richard.

I am the OP for this item.

Thank you for this...I only added the topic because of my own experience.

It wasn't to score points or anything else...and was just to gather ideas and experiences to stop anyone else suffering what I did.

 

This is NHS site..(rounded up) in 2006 551 odd cases...160 while abroad...which means the rest were from the UK !

10% fatality rate...50 odd people dead...across England/Scotland and...... Wales.

 

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Legionnaires-disease/Pages/Introduction.aspx

 

The Guardian had a smaller number of cases..but still a similar fatality rate ...10 %

This tells of the windscreen washer link.

It doesn't really matter if it is right or wrong..when a £2 bottle of Miltons could eliminate the problem.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/14/legionnaires-disease-water-wiper-risk

 

From Wales (do they have computers ?)

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/2010/09/07/outbreak-of-legionnaires-disease-in-south-wales-91466-27221203/

 

I see...Merthyr council were involved..?

 

A warning from Wales health department..mainly a 'caution'...but who wants to risk it for 20p worth of washer fluid !

http://www.wales.nhs.uk/news/16530

 

 

Thank you for these..positive thoughts...all of which contribute to making our boating lives more enjoyable.

I like the ideas of multiple thermostatic mixers...I have one..but didn't think of moving it closer point of use to ensure hot ..sterilising water..through the system. I do see the point of doing this.

Good and positive...if only CWDF could be more like that !!

 

Bob

Edited March 25, 2011 by Bobbybass

[Teakbank12]

Good topic!!

Have always been aware of this especially as i have a weakened immune system.

I regularly clean showerheads, a steamer is ideal for this.

I always run the shower first before getting into it.

 

On the boat i'll always boil the water ie have tea/coffee or alternatively have a beer!!

[Proper Job]

We no longer clean/de-scale showerheads.

 

For commercial premise it's just not cost effective - we just bin them and fit new ones.

[Night Hawk]

We tend to bleach our water system twice a year...we started off using Miltons but was advised that, provided you rinse your system thoroughly, inexpensive 'thin' bleach does pretty much the same thing...We're only holiday/weekend boaters and tend to drain the tank when we return from a trip and fill up before we leave.

 

What was a worry was that traces of Legionnaires was found at my school last Autumn - quite a panic but what a clean the place had!

[MoominPapa]

I was good and bleached the living daylights out of the water system today.

 

MP.

[Kate and James]

I had been planning on miltoning our tank, thank you for the reminder... When we get the engine running right and can get to the water pipe I'll be giving the system a good blast through!

 

Thank you

Edited March 28, 2011 by Kate and James

[dor]

One potential area for bacteria to develop is in the cold water feed to the calorifier. As the calorifier pressurises due to expansion, opening a cold tap allows hot water to go back up the cold water feed. This can sit in the pipe as warm water ideal for bacteria to develop, then reach a cold tap later after the calorifier has pressurised again. This is a good reason for fitting a non-return feed to the calorifer feed or, better, have separate hot and cold water pumps.

[sheriff]

Just a warning to those who are not liveaboard and are recommisioning their boat.

I am not medically trained and this is just based on my own nasty experience.

 

This time last year while getting my boat up and running I developed a horrible cough. I thought it would go away but it didn't...it got worse..I started to feel lousy and then I had horrible night sweats where I woke up and we had to change all the sheets because they...and I ...were ringing wet.

I went to see my GP and he said it was probably bronchitus and gave me steroids.

It got worse...and eventually I walked into A&E in Rugby hospital...within an hour I was on oxygen...and in a bed !

I was like a pin cushion...and had other 'more invasive' tests...

It was eventually diagnosed as Legionnella...which had turned to pneumonia.

I was very unwell !!

 

The hospital didn't offer any ideas of where it came from..but I started looking it up.

During last year there was a warning about car windscreen washers..that are a big source in UK. This was because many people caught it in Wales last year...

Something like...18 people caught it from garden centre compost.

 

Many people don't know they have it..they think they have some nasty flu...and it goes away on its own...but if you are elderly or have some illness (I am diabetic)...it may prove extreme or fatal.

 

In many cases...it can lurk in old water in shower pipes...and you turn it on...put your head under it...and breathe it straight in...!

I think this is what happened to me.

 

I am going to be thoroughly flushing the system with Miltons before I fill properly..

 

I have posted this here..because I don't want anyone else goes through this.

 

Bob

A sunny day outside and after a quick read I have now decided to spend the morning giving the shower head etc an even better clean.When I fill my water tank I also fill up severel 5 litre bootles to drink from.saves the pump on/off all the time.and always maintain good levels of hygiene.

 

I do remove my shower head and place it into a bowl, pour boiling hot water into and over it .now I will give it a good bleaching also.

 

thanks

[Keeping Up]

I've seen that all the bottles of Miltons and its clones say "do not allow to come into contact with metal surfaces" or "not suitable for use with stainless steel" or something like that.

 

I take it that they are talking only about the way that neat Miltons can discolour a steel surface, and that there is zero risk of diluted Miltons dissolving a hole in my stainless steel water tank or eating away my calorifier?

[Ynot]

I did our SS tank at the weekend but didn't spot the stainless steel issue. Used the recommended ratio as for baby stuff - 30ml to 1 litre of water. Is that what others do?

[Proper Job]

You cannot get legionnaires disease by drinking contaminated water (but you can get other tummy bugs).

 

It is contracted via airbourne water droplets being breathed in, hence a shower being a prime source for contamination.

 

If a shower is in regular use, it's highly unlikely to become contaminated. That's why weekend/irregular boat users are more at risk.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Proper Job