Wide Beam

[DHutch]

Is that what the magic arrows on the roof are now for - to determine which end is nearer, and hence who goes into reverse

Yeah, that and if you fall in, or get engine failer or somthing.

- It just usfull to know the way out some times if it ends up going wrong!

 

I also like the fact a lot of them are "glow in the dark" which is great, only they never get "charged" except by the odd tunnel lgiht or torch.

- So they basicaly never glow, except for about 30secs after you shine a light on them!

 

 

Daniel

[Eugene Baston]

Hi

 

Snibble pointed me in this direction so I hope you don't mind if I join in!

 

I have to say that when I read what happened I felt a bit sad that such an event had occurred. One of the nicest things about the Cut is the courtesy and pleasantries that everyone maintains (well, almost everyone), a far cry from more usual life on the local street or in the shopping centre.

 

Firstly, BW's advice is as expressed in Nicholson's Guides. Any wide beam boat wishing to navigate a tunnel should contact the local office and seek support ahead of attempting to do so. Clearly there are tunnels where this isn't necessary (I'm thinking of those less than 100 yards and where a crew member could easily reach the other end and forewarn approaching boats). While the phone numbers published in Nicholson's Guides may now be out of date, I do expect each non functional number will have an answer machine message or will automatically forward your call to the appropriate office. You can also use Waterscape's boating guides to check on routes and find local telephone numbers.

 

The Boater's Handbook advice is always to sound your horn in one long blast as you enter a tunnel. This lets others know you're entering, which is very useful if it's smokey inside or there's a bend like Braunston tunnel that prevents clear vision through the entire length. It also makes a great echo, but that's by the by!

 

In terms of rights of way on the Cut, I don't accept that because this wide beam boat is a charity boat it takes precedence. In any case, it appears that it wasn't carrying any passengers which is the only (tenuous) reason I can see for askign for priority. And that'as the difference, isn't it? Asking or stating? The former is the preserve of the Cut and is a part of the courtesy and politeness I referred to above. It seems on this occasion it was sadly lacking.

 

Best wishes, Eugene

[GUMPY]

In the Islington tunnel in the working era there was regular barge traffic. The convention then was that wide-beam boats had two lamps at the front, one on each side of the boat, while narrow beam boats had just one. An excellent convention, and I wish it had continued and spread. To this day I always feel nervouse when I see a pair of lights coming towards me in a tunnel, but (so far) it has always turned out to be an excessively brightly lit narrow boat.

 

Two lights is a good idea.

However the rules for ALL London tunnels are that you do not enter if there is a boat coming towards you and this is clearly posted at the ends of the tunnels.

 

Braunston and Blisworth you have to get assisted passage by BW at some early time of the morning.

 

Julian

[fender.]

Two lights is a good idea.

However the rules for ALL London tunnels are that you do not enter if there is a boat coming towards you and this is clearly posted at the ends of the tunnels.

 

Braunston and Blisworth you have to get assisted passage by BW at some early time of the morning.

 

Julian

 

True for London, but as we know, on another forum topic someone (was it D Hutch on his way to the canal museum?) complained about someone coming through Islington when they were already in the tunnel.

Edited February 2, 2006 by fender.

[khaffra]

For the tunnels near us Braunston, Crick and Blisworth, with a wide beam you have to get permision from BW to enter and they post someone on the far end of the tunnel to stop boats, When my Dad had a wide beam boat this normally mean't going through at around 6am so there was less traffic, there was also a clause that you could only go through so many tunnels like this a year before being charged extra by British Waterways.

[GUMPY]

True for London, but as we know, on another forum topic someone (was it D Hutch on his way to the canal museum?) complained about someone coming through Islington when they were already in the tunnel.

 

In which case the person that entered when the other was in the tunnel is very much in the wrong.

They would be mightily hacked off if they did that to me 35ton of barge quite happily fills a tunnel width.

 

J

[fender.]

True for London, but as we know, on another forum topic someone (was it D Hutch on his way to the canal museum?) complained about someone coming through Islington when they were already in the tunnel.

 

Been thinking... no its that bloke who used to write for Narrowboatworld...lived on the Thames/Wey and has recently moved to Cowley....his name???

Edited February 2, 2006 by fender.

[Liam]

Paul, aka Clevett, you mean?

[rog guiver]

And now the definitive reply just received from British waterways...

 

 

Thanks for your e-mail, and sorry to hear about your head to head in the tunnel. The onus falls on any non-standard guage craft – a narrow boat counting as standard – to ensure the way through is free before entering. This either by sending someone ahead to ensure no craft goes in from the other end, or by giving advance notice to our local office so they can offer advice or assistance. In the event of meeting within the tunnel, the standard craft should have right of way and any reversing should be done by the non-standard one. In the face of threatening behaviour we’d advocate your giving way, of course – and ask you to report what’s happened to BW, and the police if you think it’s appropriate.

 

.....Apart from spelling "gauge" incorrectly it seems very sensible.

[John Orentas]

And now the definitive reply just received from British waterways...

Thanks for your e-mail, and sorry to hear about your head to head in the tunnel. The onus falls on any non-standard guage craft – a narrow boat counting as standard – to ensure the way through is free before entering. This either by sending someone ahead to ensure no craft goes in from the other end, or by giving advance notice to our local office so they can offer advice or assistance. In the event of meeting within the tunnel, the standard craft should have right of way and any reversing should be done by the non-standard one. In the face of threatening behaviour we’d advocate your giving way, of course – and ask you to report what’s happened to BW, and the police if you think it’s appropriate.

 

.....Apart from spelling "gauge" incorrectly it seems very sensible.

 

 

Rog.

 

Can you tell us who the 'definitive reply' came from, I only ask because from my experience with BW you can ask ten officials and get ten answers, all completely different then it may well turn out that not one of them was empowered to speak with any kind of authority anyway.

[DHutch]

Paul, aka Clevett, you mean?

yeah, it wasnt me

[rog guiver]

John,

 

The e-mail came from

 

Jenny Hill

Customer Services Watford

British Waterways

T 01923 201120

[GRPCruiserman]

And now the definitive reply just received from British waterways...

Thanks for your e-mail, and sorry to hear about your head to head in the tunnel. The onus falls on any non-standard guage craft – a narrow boat counting as standard – to ensure the way through is free before entering. This either by sending someone ahead to ensure no craft goes in from the other end, or by giving advance notice to our local office so they can offer advice or assistance. In the event of meeting within the tunnel, the standard craft should have right of way and any reversing should be done by the non-standard one. In the face of threatening behaviour we’d advocate your giving way, of course – and ask you to report what’s happened to BW, and the police if you think it’s appropriate.

 

.....Apart from spelling "gauge" incorrectly it seems very sensible.

 

I have a little issue with the term 'standard gauge' which is relevant to this thread.

 

It would read that BW see narrow beamed boats as the standard size. Surely on wide beam waterways such as The Leeds Liverpool Canal, The Bridgewater Canal, and indeed The Lancaster Canal, broad beam is the standard gauge as this is the width that the canal was built for. 6foot 10inch beamed boats are not standard on these waterways but are narrower, not that this should have any effect on their right to navigate.

 

The Trent and Mersey canal from Preston Brook to just short of Middlewich is 9foot beam, so, again 6foot 10inch is not standard. This includes three tunnels.

 

I used to have a Fame Concorde 16 which was 5foot 11inch beam, so did this give me less rightof way than a narrow boat as I was actually LESS than the new BW standard guage! I think not, although given this situation it would be sensible to reverse a smaller more agile craft.

 

This is a very slippery slope. When queuing for locks, is it now permissible for 6foot 10inch beam boatys to jump the queue as they have right of way? That would be interesting on The Lancaster Glasson flight on a Whit Bank holiday when scores of 9 foot beam Freemans are queuing to use the locks. Can I then dive to the front as my Dawncraft is 'Standard Guage'? Perhaps BW can comment?

 

In my GRP boat I would not like to try and pass any craft in a tunnel, I know some tunnels down south allow boats to pass in them, but I prefer the 'one direction at a time ' system we have up here even if it does mean you have to wait some time to use some tunnels.

 

Stanedge Tunnel on the newly restored Huddesfield Narrow Canal is almost unusable to us GRP cruisers as BW insist in towing long trains of narrow boats through which bounce against the sides of the tunnel. This is apparently due to ventalation, but the driver of the tug is out in the open!! I will stick to The Leeds Liverpool and Rochdale canals for pennine crossings.

 

Wasn't their some arguement some years ago about The Grand Union Canal and Dutch Barges? They rebuilt a road aqueduct just short of Middlewich to narrow beam a few years ago which denied 9 foot boats about a mile of canal in to the town centre, it would be terrible if this trend were to restart.

 

Was the incident first described on a narrowe canal? If so, then does 'standard guage' vary dependant on which canal you are on? If so, the at Gannow Tunnel on the Leeds Liverpool, a wide beam would give way to a narrow boat, whereas elsewhere it would be the other way round.

 

Also, as I understood it, a pleasure boat used to have to give way to a working boat. Is this still the case and does this over ride the 'guage' rule?

 

BW, over to you (and anyone else who wants to comment?)?

[DHutch]

I have a little issue with the term 'standard gauge' which is relevant to this thread.

Yeah, i also though that was a little bit of an odd term to be using.

- The whole idea of widebeams being the ones to check sort of makes sencem but calling NB's "stardard gauge" of a broard canal seams a mistake to me.

- Alos khaffra's post that surgess an extra cost if widbeams use a tunnel more than x number of times seams rather unfair too.

 

 

Daniel

[alan_fincher]

In my GRP boat I would not like to try and pass any craft in a tunnel, I know some tunnels down south allow boats to pass in them, but I prefer the 'one direction at a time ' system we have up here even if it does mean you have to wait some time to use some tunnels.

This really would not be practical with the likes of Braunston or Blisworth, and some days if you waited around outside until you thought there was nothing coming towards you, you would never get a slot to go in.

 

Anyway with the longer broad tunnels, even on a fairly clear day, without too much build up of exhaust inside, it's often not possible to say for certain if something is in them or not. It also takes a skilled eye sometimes to say which way a boat in there is going, particularly if it's a considerate type who has got their spotlight angled well towards the tunnel side, so as not to dazzle oncoming steerers.

 

I went through Blisworth recently on a mates boat, at a very out-of-season, (sorry John!), time of the year, in both directions, and estimate that something like 6 boats passed us each way, even then, and that several more were in the tunnel in our direction at the same time.

 

Not going in if someone is coming the other way might work in some places, but it's horses for courses, and whatever you tackle the big GU tunnels in, be prepared for them to be quite busy.

 

In my experience passing boats seldom touch, and novice hirers will usually run their boat along the wall rather than risk any impact with you. What I did notice on my mates boat was that several "owner" boats coming the other way just stopped and waited, (it usually seemed to involve vast amounts of bowthruster noises!) - it's as well we didn't do the same, or we might never have got through

[Sir Nibble]

The BW guidance appears clear and simple to me. I have never heard of any circumstances on road or water where "Right of way" entitles anyone to jump a que, (damned if I can work out the correct spelling!)

Right of way is a means of establishing a system of priorities where two or more require the same space at the same time, we have all been at a roundabout behind some fool who in the absence of traffic from the right to give way to, will wait until someone arrives so that they can correctly give way. Lets not invent circumstances to transfer the same behaviour to the waterways.

 

I was once waiting for a train at Beaconsfield. The station car park there is at the top of a hill at the end of a narrow road. As I watched a posh looking lady in a Jag heading down came head to head with a young girl in a metro heading up. The jag could have reversed into the car park, the metro would have had to reverse onto the (very) busy high street. The lady with the jag put her head out and called out "I have right of way, because I'm a big car, and you're a little car".

[Eugene Baston]

Hi all

 

I think Jenny was referring to 'standard' with good intentions. 'Standard' can refer to quantity; there are many more narrowboats on the network than any other size of vessel beam, and it therefore makes sense to use the most common beam size as a reference to 'standard'.

 

That said, the following extract from the IWA's web site illuminates the topic a little more:

 

Inland waterways comprise canals, rivers and drains which are, or were, navigable by deep-draught craft. They were built by a large number of independent companies to a variety of gauges. In the vicinity of large rivers and estuaries a 'broad' gauge was generally adopted, based on the craft of each region. Typical broad gauges are: in North-West England, 72 ft x 14 ft (based on Mersey flats); North-East 54 ft x 14 ft (Keels); South-East 86 ft x 12 ft 6 in (Thames barges); and, in the South-West, 72 ft x 15 ft 6 in (Trows). There are many local variations of broad gauges, including those resulting from reconstruction of waterways to accommodate different craft. In contrast, in 1769 the then five main companies agreed a standard 'narrow' canal craft gauge;1 most narrow waterways accommodate craft of 72 ft length and 7 ft beam.

 

(Source: http://www.waterways.org.uk/library/restor...whyrestore.htm)

 

While the start of this extract supports GRP Cruiserman's views, it's interesting to note that even in 1769 there was an agreement between the five canal companies to settle on a standard 'narrow' canal gauge.

 

By the way, it's good to see that some people just can't resist moving to 'swipe mode' even when other peoples' queries are answered by BW. John, do you fancy meeting up one day? I'd be interested to try and understand just what it is you think is so worng with BW, so that we can try and do something about it.

 

Best wishes, Eugene

[alan_fincher]

Eugene,

 

This is intended to be a helpful suggestion, not BW bashing.

 

As I said in a previous post, "The Boaters Handbook", which you good folk send to all licence holders, states....

 

"Check for instructions, entry times, or traffic lights at the tunnel entrance".

 

It doesn't say, "additionally purchase a Nicholson's guide, then try and work out whether the instructions or phone numbers in it are current".......

 

Given the considerable spend on what I'd consider rather over the top signage in all kinds of other places, and the relatively small number of tunnels involved, could the longer broad tunnels, where two way working may occur, not just instead of having a sign saying

 

"Keep Right"

 

on the outside, instead have one saying something like....

 

"Craft 7 feet beam and under, Keep Right. Craft over 7 feet, phone British Waterways office on 0123-456789 [or whatever!] before proceding"

 

It doesn't seem like rocket science.

 

[Edit:]

 

Perhaps before the working boat brigade jump in, that should be 7feet 1inch, not 7 feet! - I do realise that many of the "narrow" boats have a design width that marginally exceeds 7 feet...

Or would it have to be metric now, anyway ?!?

Edited February 3, 2006 by alan_fincher

[DaveR]

To me when having to back out of a tunnel when meeting another boat, the easiest way is to tie to two boats together on a short line so that the boat coming out forwards can keep the bow of the reversing boat into the centre of the channel. Speed needs to be adjusted carefully and slowly.

 

That way even if both are single handed it can be done at a fair but safe speed.

[fender.]

Paul, aka Clevett, you mean?

 

Yes thats the one

[Eugene Baston]

Eugene,

 

This is intended to be a helpful suggestion, not BW bashing.

 

Given the considerable spend on what I'd consider rather over the top signage in all kinds of other places, and the relatively small number of tunnels involved, could the longer broad tunnels, where two way working may occur, not just instead of having a sign saying

 

"Keep Right"

 

on the outside, instead have one saying something like....

 

"Craft 7 feet beam and under, Keep Right. Craft over 7 feet, phone British Waterways office on 0123-456789 [or whatever!] before proceding"

 

 

Alan

 

Thanks for this useful suggestion, I will make sure it gets to the right person currently working on general standards for waterways facilities such as signs.

 

Eugene

[rog guiver]

Eugene,

 

While we are talking about tunnels, could you possibly get someone at BW to explain BW's involvement ( and the cost) of the appalling (my opinion) light show in the North Oxford's Newbold Tunnel.

 

Thanks

[Sue]

I like the tunnel lights. My son visited this week and said it was the highlight of the trip from Coventry Basin to Newbold.. Mind you, I was surprised to see them on still ...

 

 

I have an awful fear of tunnels, made worse by my thoughts of meeting a wide beam boat in there. I do hope that Eugene does put some extra signage outside the tunnel portals. I think if I ever met a widebeam in one of the big tunnels, I would never go through one again.

 

I don't know that having the port and starboard lights on would be actually seen by an approaching boat what with the high density tunnel light shone by a wide beam, but I shall remember that and just die slowly if I should spot red and green on each side of the tunnel!

[GRPCruiserman]

I like the tunnel lights. My son visited this week and said it was the highlight of the trip from Coventry Basin to Newbold.. Mind you, I was surprised to see them on still ...

 

 

I have an awful fear of tunnels, made worse by my thoughts of meeting a wide beam boat in there. I do hope that Eugene does put some extra signage outside the tunnel portals. I think if I ever met a widebeam in one of the big tunnels, I would never go through one again.

 

I don't know that having the port and starboard lights on would be actually seen by an approaching boat what with the high density tunnel light shone by a wide beam, but I shall remember that and just die slowly if I should spot red and green on each side of the tunnel!

 

That picture is superb, the light on the tunnel walls looks fantastic.

[nbtafelberg]

We went into the Islington Tunnel and were 90% through when a trip boat came through even though there are signs up saying Single Passage Only. It was an open trip boat so the passengers got to hear me complaining especially when they smacked into Tafelberg I reported them to BW who sorted them out. They came back again but my goodness some of those passengers must have enjoyed the banter.

 

Luckily I diddn't swear!