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I find it very confusing choosing the best paint for our boat - we tend to use 'Craftmaster' as our first choice but there are many other brands on the market. At least two of them appear to be made by the same firm, HMG Paints - who also supply paint directly to the market with their own branding. With competing brands advertising the fact that they can match each others colour range and quality specs., I am beginning to wonder if they are simply all the same stuff?

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I find it very confusing choosing the best paint for our boat - we tend to use 'Craftmaster' as our first choice but there are many other brands on the market. At least two of them appear to be made by the same firm, HMG Paints - who also supply paint directly to the market with their own branding. With competing brands advertising the fact that they can match each others colour range and quality specs., I am beginning to wonder if they are simply all the same stuff?

 

Phil always maintained that Craftmaster was specially blended to a mix that he had developed and chosen in conjunction with HMG's technologists. IIRC it had, among other things, a denser pigment loading. Later though, I seem to remember that the pigment loading was reduced to some extent due to the inability of some coach painters to handle that original blend. Come in Phil, where are you?

I think there have been a few imitations introduced since the original Craftmaster paint though but what formulation they have, only HMG could probably tell us.

Roger

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There are two types of product coming out of HMG.

 

HMG's Own Brand Coach Enamel badged various ways by two other companies.

 

The other is Craftmaster's own formulation Coach Enamel.

 

They are most deffinatly very different. If you go into the 'Belfast' Building at HMG you can see the various binders on a large racking system. There are various standard resins as well as One labeled HMG Coach Enamel and One labeled 'Craftmaster'

 

Most (if not all) brands on the market run at around 40-50% pigment to binder. At Craftmaster we are into 60% territory. Which is at least 20% higher than the nearest comparable product (that we have found). Our binder can handle the larger pigment loading and retain its unique properties whilst others will suffer with higher loadings

 

I have seen the component formulations for HMG Coach Enamel & Craftmaster Coach Enamel and very very few ingrediants are shared between the two. They are completely and utterly different.

 

We use three binders. One for Undercoat. One for Raddle Bilge & Anti Slip. One for Craftmaster Coach Enamel. None of these is HMG Coach Enamel

 

As far as modifications to the original formula I believe it was tweaked periodically until '08 when the new binder came in and since then it remains unaltered. If anything the modifications have made it easier for the non proffesional painter to use

 

Everyones paint (aside from the two offering HMG own branch Coach Enamel) are different and have different characteristics. Although some if not all of the big international manufacturers will use the same binders in a whole host of products which is I believe partly why Masons went off the boil to the extent it did

Edited by Adam Brown
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From our own research and testing - rudimentary as it may be - we have found that on average International paint leaves a thicker dry film then all the others.

 

The testing we did consisted of applying the paints at 100 mu wet film, and then measuring with our dry film gauge what thickness of paint was left. I'm not a 'paint technition', this is simple testing but I assuming we can get fairly close to working out what the thickest paint is.

 

All gloss and undercoat we looked at were averaging 25- 30 mu DFT apart from international toplac which was averaging 40-45 mu. Kind of makes sence when you think it is the most expensive out of all the paints.

 

You can do the test yourself, all you need is a wet film gauge and a dry film gauge, a piece of steel and some paint to test.

 

Surprisingly enough Sikkens primer gave a really good result averaging around 50 - 55 mu when applied at 100 mu wet film. The sikkens primer is really cheap from what I can remember.

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From our own research and testing - rudimentary as it may be - we have found that on average International paint leaves a thicker dry film then all the others.

 

The testing we did consisted of applying the paints at 100 mu wet film, and then measuring with our dry film gauge what thickness of paint was left. I'm not a 'paint technition', this is simple testing but I assuming we can get fairly close to working out what the thickest paint is.

 

All gloss and undercoat we looked at were averaging 25- 30 mu DFT apart from international toplac which was averaging 40-45 mu. Kind of makes sence when you think it is the most expensive out of all the paints.

 

You can do the test yourself, all you need is a wet film gauge and a dry film gauge, a piece of steel and some paint to test.

 

Surprisingly enough Sikkens primer gave a really good result averaging around 50 - 55 mu when applied at 100 mu wet film. The sikkens primer is really cheap from what I can remember.

 

Aren't Sikkens and International (and Masons and Dulux) part of the big Dutch Akzo Nobel group?

 

I notice that Johnstones were fromerly part of Sigma-Kalon are part of PPG which IFAIK is another large Dutch company.

 

I have no concerns about quality of any of the paints I have used but I wonder how many genuinely independent british quality paintmakers actually exist.

Edited by andywatson
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Aren't Sikkens and International (and Masons and Dulux) part of the big Dutch Akzo Nobel group?

 

I notice that Johnstones were fromerly part of Sigma-Kalon are part of PPG which IFAIK is another large Dutch company.

 

I have no concerns about quality of any of the paints I have used but I wonder how many genuinely independent british quality paintmakers actually exist.

 

Then its just HMG these days with their distributors selling there range of products and us with our own exclusive range of jointly developed but ulitmately HMG made products.

 

 

HMG are the biggest independant in the UK i believe

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Aren't Sikkens and International (and Masons and Dulux) part of the big Dutch Akzo Nobel group?

 

They are indeed - International is made in the UK though.

 

I like Humbrol the best. Save up all the left overs from your Airfix kits.

Edited by Speedwheel
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I suspect that the 'Narrowboat Paint' marketed by 'Rapid Paint' is also manufactured by the HMG company and this product is aggressively marketed on the basis that they can match the colours and quality of the 'Craftmaster' range as well as all those of other manufacturers including International.

 

Midland Chandlers also market their own brand of boat paints with containers and labels that look remarkably similar to HMG products . . .

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I suspect that the 'Narrowboat Paint' marketed by 'Rapid Paint' is also manufactured by the HMG company and this product is aggressively marketed on the basis that they can match the colours and quality of the 'Craftmaster' range as well as all those of other manufacturers including International.

 

Midland Chandlers also market their own brand of boat paints with containers and labels that look remarkably similar to HMG products . . .

It is already well documented that Narrowboat paint is an HMG product.

 

It also seems to be accepted that it is at least broadly the same product, and possibly identical to HMG's own Coach Enamel.

 

As has been stated, Craftmaster is also made by HMG, but to a different formula.

 

When a very reputable chandlery first sold us Narrowboat paint a few years back they were, (I believe), genuinely under the impression it was broadly the same formulation as Craftmaster, and used each interchangeably when painting boats in their own yard. Only with the debate that has gone on since has it become really clear that Craftmaster is a different formulation.

 

Of course the fact that Craftmaster themselves say they have relatively recently changed the mix complicates things even more, as there must surely be "old Craftmaster" and "new Craftmaster", and, let's be honest, some stuff in chandleries has enough dust on to have been there some time!

 

It's interesting that a professional boat painter believes that International actually lays a thicker paint film in each coat than most of the opposition, as I would say that this gives a rather different result than the implication that you are more likely to achieve this with a more "traditional" coach enamel.

 

We have loads of Narrowboat paint left over from a previous order, so have after much debate decided to stick with it for much of the boat. Only time will tell how succesful we prove to be with the current repaint, (first undercoats may go on today....).

 

A word of warning to anyone considering Blakes paints, now rebadged Hempel. We decided to switch to these for our roof, as we are changing colour, but find Hempel have a massive supply problem, and that white or grey primer undercoats are unavailable, and that most places have long since run out, (Aquafax who would currently hold large stocks have none). We were literally doing a mad dash the other day to clear chandleries of their last remaining odd tines, (unfortunately only in 750 ml tins - rather expensive on a roof, when they say a minimum of five coats! :lol: )

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As has been stated, Craftmaster is also made by HMG, but to a different formula.

 

Are you sure?

It might have been once but the current Craftmaster colour card gives an address and phone number for the Cambridge area.

Edited by andywatson
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Are you sure?

It might have been once but the current Craftmaster colour card gives an address and phone number for the Cambridge area.

 

Phil dealt with this in a posting about his retirement from the running of Craftmaster (can't find it to link to at the moment). IIRC it was like this, on his retirement his co-directors were going to move Craftmaster from Stoubridge to Cambridge and John was going to continue the boat coach painting business at Stourbridge. Phil was going to be doing foraging trips from the frozen wastes of Scotland :lol: to do any commissions for sign-writing etc.

Roger

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Are you sure?

It might have been once but the current Craftmaster colour card gives an address and phone number for the Cambridge area.

 

Its always been made by HMG. No matter where Craftmaster was trading from.

 

We took over the running of Craftmaster in January and completed the move to Cambridge in May. Phil remains fully on board and deals with most things technical. I will say now that there will be no changes to the make up of the paint unless they have Phils full aproval and are a step forward. Its still the same stuff Craftmaster have always sold.

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I suspect that the 'Narrowboat Paint' marketed by 'Rapid Paint' is also manufactured by the HMG company and this product is aggressively marketed on the basis that they can match the colours and quality of the 'Craftmaster' range as well as all those of other manufacturers including International.

 

Midland Chandlers also market their own brand of boat paints with containers and labels that look remarkably similar to HMG products . . .

As your first choice is craftmaster, if you are happy with it your best bet is to stay with what you know.

 

Vehicle refinishing suppliers who supply HMG coach paint usualy stock a range compatible HMG primers and undercoats, they are often unaware of the different properties of these products and will happily supply DIY customers with products that may not give the expected result or when applied in the wrong time frame can cause dissasters such as reactions. If you or anyone else decides to use HMG rather than narrowboat paint at twice the price wants more info I'll post some.

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To add a bit more confusion I came across this link for craftmaster 'Tractor' paints.

 

http://www.tfmsuperstore.co.uk/product.las...398E4XgFF261900

 

 

These look identical to the boat paint but only in a few limited colours. I sure Adam could tell us if they are a different formulation. The price is £18.95 Litre which is a considerable saving on the chandlers prices of between £24 to £27 per litre. So either they are cheaper because of the make up or don't attract the high premimum of 'marine' products. I might be able to live with Ferguson Grey and Leyland Dark Blue . The undercoats are also cheaper at £16.95 Litre( local chandler £22) .

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That is our standard Coach Enamel.

 

However in this instance TFM purchased it over a year ago (before my time) and only a small quantity at that. I would assume as there have not been any repeat orders that it has been an unsuccessful experiment and they have decided to clear out what they have left. I doubt we will deal with them again

 

Its certainly not one price for one market and one for another. Our Coach Enamel is the same price whatever your painting please check our website for our recommended retail prices.

 

My advice on the paint above? If you fancy a Massey Ferguson Grey boat - go for it. Its an excellent deal! But we don't have any records of the colours they had (nothing previous to May this year for special colours) so we can't make any more!

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Following a couple of PMs some more information on HMG paint

These are products that in my opinion have the properties most people expect when painting a steel boat with overcoating times (minimum)

Coach enamel - 24 hours

DG142 Synthetic high opacity undercoat - 8 hours

BDX Synthetic primer - 4 hours

2611 Thinner - spraying

2612 Thinner - brushing

 

There are other undercoats that offer different properties, A1242 undercoat and KX undercoat/primer, both of these prevent the top coat sinking into the undercoat and will give a higher gloss finish BUT beware of the drying time, HMG state minimum 18/24 hours respectively, it's not long enough! In my experience they need 2 days or they can and will produce a craze type reaction with coach enamel. I would advise any DIY painter to avoid them.

 

C71 speedline is not the same as coach enamel; don’t let the paint counter guy tell you it is.

 

When brush painting large areas, ignore all, light coat - flash - full coat times on HMG data sheets they can't be met, just apply in single full coats.

 

Coach enamel is available in RAL and BS colours as well as many car/commercial colours.

Edited by Radio-Ga-Ga
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Following a couple of PMs some more information on HMG paint

These are products that in my opinion have the properties most people expect when painting a steel boat with overcoating times (minimum)

Coach enamel - 24 hours

DG142 Synthetic high opacity undercoat - 8 hours

BDX Synthetic primer - 4 hours

2611 Thinner - spraying

2612 Thinner - brushing

 

There are other undercoats that offer different properties, A1242 undercoat and KX undercoat/primer, both of these prevent the top coat sinking into the undercoat and will give a higher gloss finish BUT beware of the drying time, HMG state minimum 18/24 hours respectively, it's not long enough! In my experience they need 2 days or they can and will produce a craze type reaction with coach enamel. I would advise any DIY painter to avoid them.

 

C71 speedline is not the same as coach enamel; don’t let the paint counter guy tell you it is.

 

When brush painting large areas, ignore all, light coat - flash - full coat times on HMG data sheets they can't be met, just apply in single full coats.

 

Coach enamel is available in RAL and BS colours as well as many car/commercial colours.

 

Interesting view. Your correct on the drying/overcoating of A1242 in stating 18hours. However the TDS for KX says 16 hours drying time but can be overcoated within 6hours. Where did you get 24 hours from?

 

A1242 or KX are fine under Coach Enamel and I have never heard of them reacting with Coach Enamel unless there is an underlying problem. Less than 1% of problems with paint are due to the product itself. Its usually a mix of environmental and application issues

 

The limitations of A1242 and DG142 is that I believe they are only made in specific colours from Distributors. If you wished for a matching undercoat for your top coat you may not get a close enough match

 

Who's been selling C71 as Coach Enamel then cos thats a bit naughty?

 

For the record neither I nor Phil have ever found much wrong with HMG's data sheets so its interesting you have encountered problems. I would strongly advise anyone using a HMG product to pay close attention to the data sheets or if using a Craftmaster product to use our data sheets (or ring Phil he's better than a datasheet). If used correctly and in the correct environment most information on the sheet should be fairly accurate

 

Phil has a bit to say on this subject and has much greater knowledge than me but hes sadly trapped in tinternet limbo up in tartan country. He's going to brave the locals and attempt reconection with the world on Friday at some point!

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Snippity>>

Phil has a bit to say on this subject and has much greater knowledge than me but hes sadly trapped in tinternet limbo up in tartan country. He's going to brave the locals and attempt reconection with the world on Friday at some point!

 

I look forward to Phil's overwintering in Sconnie Botland, with the possible discovery of a Tartan Craftmaster Paint next Spring?

 

( - :lol: - )

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Yes this is the real reason for Phil's so called 'retirement' he is infact hoping to procure the secrets of tartan from the bag pipers.

 

Next Spring we will indeed launch Phils Magical Tartan Paint :lol:

 

I do already have some stripy....... we're just not sure what mistake created it....... :S

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Interesting view. Your correct on the drying/overcoating of A1242 in stating 18hours. However the TDS for KX says 16 hours drying time but can be overcoated within 6hours. Where did you get 24 hours from?

 

A1242 or KX are fine under Coach Enamel and I have never heard of them reacting with Coach Enamel unless there is an underlying problem. Less than 1% of problems with paint are due to the product itself. Its usually a mix of environmental and application issues

 

The limitations of A1242 and DG142 is that I believe they are only made in specific colours from Distributors. If you wished for a matching undercoat for your top coat you may not get a close enough match

 

Who's been selling C71 as Coach Enamel then cos thats a bit naughty?

 

For the record neither I nor Phil have ever found much wrong with HMG's data sheets so its interesting you have encountered problems. I would strongly advise anyone using a HMG product to pay close attention to the data sheets or if using a Craftmaster product to use our data sheets (or ring Phil he's better than a datasheet). If used correctly and in the correct environment most information on the sheet should be fairly accurate

 

Phil has a bit to say on this subject and has much greater knowledge than me but hes sadly trapped in tinternet limbo up in tartan country. He's going to brave the locals and attempt reconection with the world on Friday at some point!

 

HMG Paints Ltd

One name that covers everything Riverside Works, Collyhurst Road, Collyhurst

Manchester, England, M40 7RU

Tel: 0161 205 7631 / Fax: 0161 205 8823

www.hmgpaint.com / sales@hmgpaint.com

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PRODUCT NAME

KX Undercoat

ISSUE DATE

22/9/2005

PRODUCT CODE

PRIKX

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PRODUCT DESCRIPTION

A high build Polyurethane Alkyd undercoat that offers excellent wet edge characteristics and superb topcoat holdout.

It has been formulated for use under all HMG Synthetic topcoats, and is available in a range of colours complimentary to the top coat.

MAXIMUM VOC CONTENT (RFU)

0.456kgs/ltr

REGULATIONS / COMPLIANCE

• 2004/42 IIB © 540

COLOUR RANGE

Available in a wide colour range including RAL & BS shades

 

TECHNICAL INFORMATION

 

COVERAGE FLASHPOINT STORAGE

14 square metres per litre 38°C 12 months in original sealed containers

CLEANING

Ensure surfaces to be coated are dry and free from all traces of contaminants.

HMG produce a full range of cleaners, silicone removers, degreasers and preparatory cleaners suitable for the cleaning process.

Please refer to our website for Knowledge Base article Prep-Cleaning Techniques (KNB0009) and Preparatory Cleaners from the Product Guide.

SURFACE PREPARATION

Please refer to Knowledge Base for details on Surface Preparation.

SUGGESTED PRIMER / FILLER / SEALER SYSTEMS

2K Etch Primer High Build Washfiller; Synthetic BDX Primer.

HEALTH AND SAFETY

Refer to MSDS and tin label prior to use.

Suitable respiratory equipment should be worn when spraying.

APPLICATION METHODS BRUSH COMPLIANT SPRAY GUN PRESSURE POT

MIXING RATIO

Base 10 10 10

Thinner up to 0.5 up to 1 up to 0.5

THINNER OPTIONS 2611 2612 2611 2612 2611 2612

VISCOSITY 25-35 seconds DIN4 25-35 seconds DIN4

SPRAY GUN SETUP 1.8 1.2-1.4

NUMBER OF COATS 2 coats 2 full coats 2 full coats

FLASH OFF 15 mins between coats 15 mins between coats

DRYING TIME

 

Touch dry Hard dry

3hrs @20°C 16hrs @20°C

RECOATABILITY / OVERCOATING

Min 24 hrs depending on build & temp. Surface should be de-nibbed prior to overcoating.

WET FILM THICKNESS

100 microns

DRY FILM THICKNESS

55 microns

This information relates only to the specific material designated and may not be valid for such material used in combination with any other materials or in any process. Such information is to the best of HMG's knowledge and belief accurate and reliable as of the date indicated. However, no representation, warranty or guarantee is made as to it's accuracy, reliability or completeness. It is the user's responsibility to satisfy themselves as to the suitability and completeness of such information for their own particular use. For professional use only.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Drying times? limited colour range?

Your aspersions relating to my posts are becoming a little irritating, especialy as to date they have been shown to be incorrect!

 

I have not had a reaction between KX and coach enamel though a friend in the refinishing trade has, I have had a severe reaction with A1242 and coach enamel, HMG identified the problem as inadequate drying time, even though it had been 24 hours, and after replacing the products and supplying my next order free, advised "at least 40 hours if the temp was below 20c for any of the 18 hours drying time" hence 2 days is what I recomended.

 

Nobody has passed off C71 as coach enamel, but it has been offered to me at a trade counter as "it's the same as"

 

Some of HMG's data sheets don't differentiate between brushing and spraying applications and give flash times between coats that are fine when spraying, but are IMO inapropriate when brush painting.

Edited by Radio-Ga-Ga
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I have no axe to grind with you.

 

I have a different data sheet for that product

 

So calm down

 

Yes they do have a limited colour range but KX is an any colour product

 

To date shown to be incorrect? I'm not aware that I have.

 

You are on here giving advice but maybe it would be nice if people new who you are and what your experience is. Me and Phil are both known to be from Craftmaster so we have the technical back up of HMG and Phils extensive experience

 

I am not trying to antagonise you I am curious to you background and the basis of you advice to others.

 

Oh and Next time could you just post a link to the data sheet? Cos they are very long after all.

Edited by Adam Brown
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I have not had a reaction between KX and coach enamel though a friend in the refinishing trade has, I have had a severe reaction with A1242 and coach enamel, HMG identified the problem as inadequate drying time, even though it had been 24 hours, and after replacing the products and supplying my next order free, advised "at least 40 hours if the temp was below 20c for any of the 18 hours drying time" hence 2 days is what I recomended.

 

Nobody has passed off C71 as coach enamel, but it has been offered to me at a trade counter as "it's the same as"

 

Some of HMG's data sheets don't differentiate between brushing and spraying applications and give flash times between coats that are fine when spraying, but are IMO inapropriate when brush painting.

Useful information thanks!

 

Adam Brown, out of interest are you also an experienced coach painter / experienced refinisher (like Radio Ga Ga)?

Edited by kitman
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