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Engine cut out, won't start


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Right, took my cruiser out for the first time today....didn't go too well...

 

Engine ran nicely at first, about 20 minutes later it started juddering a bit and sounded like it might be missing on one, ramped it up again and it carried on. It then cut out...re-started it and it ran for a short while and it cut out about 20 secs later. Black smoke came through the exhaust as well....which I know to be a sign of unburnt fuel

 

I know a little bit about diesel engines from work.....oil pressure was OK, water temp OK, oil level OK. Fuel gauge showing half a tank. Batteries now knackered from about 10 failed cranks (additions/replacements waiting to go in)....

 

Haven't checked fuel/air flow due to lack of tools.....going back tomorrow fully kitted out, someone said to check the pot at the bottom of the fuel filter assembly for water - I'll dip the tank while I'm at it too.

 

 

Now for the stupid part, next to the switch to turn the engine off was a green switch with an "electricity bolt" symbol, is this the glow plug switch....? If so....I never turned it off the whole time it was running (stupid I know, but the static diesels at work either don't have them or have auto glow, and I probably got a bit too excited) - but would burnt out glow plugs cause it to cut out? I'd have thought it'd just stop it from starting from cold.....but it seems logical....if the switch is for the glow plugs of course.

 

It's a Mitsubishi 800cc 3 cylinder....no idea on further details on it but I do have a couple of pics....any advice very welcome, and please do take the pee as much as need be if it does indeed sound like I've killed the plugs....

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Not wishing to be a harbinger of doom, and certainly not an expert on engines - but if the timing belt /chain is easily accessible you might want to look at that.

 

 

Glowplugs are usually on the ignition key and sprung-loaded, with a guide to not operate for more than 12 seconds or so. This is because they will burn out if heated for much longer than that. If you have a manual toggle switch and they really were on for the whole day, unless there is some sort of timed relay in the circuit, then they are likely/certain to have died... However, some / most engines in weather like this need little or no glow plug to start them...

 

I don't think the running 20 mins into a cruise will be affected by running or duff glow plugs though and something else is the cause of rough running - certainly fuel starvation could be a cause, and checking the fuel filters would be one of the first things to check as water in the bowls / system could "block" the passage of fuel, or if there was so much that the bowls were full and water was passing into the injector pump, this is a very bad situation and the water must be removed. The very fine tolerances present in the injector pump need diesel there to lubricate the parts, and lack of lubricant can do damage quickly. Equally, dirt in the filters could block the passage of fuel and needs to be cleaned out.....

 

Nick

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I'll take apart as much of the fuel system as I can and check that out....the air filter housing seems to be a bit squashed so I'll see if it runs at all without it on briefly...... Got my tank dipping green water indicating stuff (there must be a proper name for it!), grease gun, big funnel for pouring my diesel in (maybe I'm being a bit too hopeful) and 8x 100ah 6 volt cells....that should keep me somewhat quiet tomorrow anyway.....

 

Can anyone confirm what the green switch will be for?

imageehr.jpg

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I'll take apart as much of the fuel system as I can and check that out....the air filter housing seems to be a bit squashed so I'll see if it runs at all without it on briefly...... Got my tank dipping green water indicating stuff (there must be a proper name for it!), grease gun, big funnel for pouring my diesel in (maybe I'm being a bit too hopeful) and 8x 100ah 6 volt cells....that should keep me somewhat quiet tomorrow anyway.....

 

Can anyone confirm what the green switch will be for?

 

 

Not sure but it doesn't look like its for glowplug operation to to me, the label would be clearer on a modern control panel like that. More likely a switch for the domestic 12v system I'd say. On my last boat the glow plugs were operated by turning the key ANTIclockwise, against a spring. Hold for ten seconds then turn key clockwise as normal (for a car) to start. I bet yours is the same from looking at the style of the panel.

 

As a technical person but with no expertise in diesels I'd say your symtoms were consistent with fuel starvation, or air getting into the injector pump. My diesel car used to behave like this occasionally and continued cranking would eventually make it start again and run fine for the rest of the day. I had mid grey smoke in large volumes when it did it though. The black smoke you say suggests to me too a failed timing belt. Could have slipped a tooth once to give the bad running, then either slipped again or broken to stop the engine completely. Is there an oil filler cap in the rocker box you can pear through to see if the valves are opening/closing whilst turning the engine?

 

Cheers, Mike

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Thanks for that - was just a thought, as it was the only thing I could think I've done 'wrong' if you get what I mean....

 

It does sound alot like when we changed a fuel filter at work and forgot to bleed it, then tried to start it.....but I doubt that'd give black smoke (can't really see the smoke at work with the engine being inside and the exhaust going out).... I'll see if I can get at the belt/chain and by the looks of it it shouldn't be too difficult to get the rocker cover off.....I did find a strange looking handle that resembled a cranking handle but I doubt it, the engine looks too new for that, but we'll see....

 

Thanks for your advice anyway

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I'll take apart as much of the fuel system as I can and check that out....the air filter housing seems to be a bit squashed so I'll see if it runs at all without it on briefly...... Got my tank dipping green water indicating stuff (there must be a proper name for it!), grease gun, big funnel for pouring my diesel in (maybe I'm being a bit too hopeful) and 8x 100ah 6 volt cells....that should keep me somewhat quiet tomorrow anyway.....

 

Can anyone confirm what the green switch will be for?

imageehr.jpg

 

I can't confirm, but could it be a switchable excitation for a domestic alternator? The engine is quite small and this could be a means of only adding domestic charging load at idle after the engine has fired up successfully. Pure speculation of course and only valid if you have a second, domestic, alternator because you have the charge warning light excitation for the engine start alternator clearly showing in the photo. Probably rubbish but no-one else has suggested anything else.

 

On your main problem, black smoke is caused by over-fuelling, lack of full air inlet flow or over-loading of the engine such that the fuelling cannot be correct for the load demanded.

So, as suggested, have you checked for fouling of the prop? Can you turn the prop shaft by hand?

Is the air inlet system restricted/blocked?

The symptoms described also suggest engine overheating and yet you say that the engine temperature gauge was OK. If the engine starts OK from cold and then repeats the same symptoms after a while then I would still suspect overheating despite the gauge.

It is always difficult doing diagnosis remotely of course and there can only be suggestions. I personally doubt the slipped timing theories because this would cause an incomplete combustion process which would have caused white smoke, not black.

Roger

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I can't confirm, but could it be a switchable excitation for a domestic alternator? The engine is quite small and this could be a means of only adding domestic charging load at idle after the engine has fired up successfully. Pure speculation of course and only valid if you have a second, domestic, alternator because you have the charge warning light excitation for the engine start alternator clearly showing in the photo. Probably rubbish but no-one else has suggested anything else.

 

On your main problem, black smoke is caused by over-fuelling, lack of full air inlet flow or over-loading of the engine such that the fuelling cannot be correct for the load demanded.

So, as suggested, have you checked for fouling of the prop? Can you turn the prop shaft by hand?

Is the air inlet system restricted/blocked?

The symptoms described also suggest engine overheating and yet you say that the engine temperature gauge was OK. If the engine starts OK from cold and then repeats the same symptoms after a while then I would still suspect overheating despite the gauge.

It is always difficult doing diagnosis remotely of course and there can only be suggestions. I personally doubt the slipped timing theories because this would cause an incomplete combustion process which would have caused white smoke, not black.

Roger

Thanks for the comments on the switch - I work with large DC power systems and AC generators so I'm not scared to take it apart and figure it out at a later date - just wondered if it was critical to the running of the engine....

 

As previously mentioned, the air filter assembly looks quite 'squashed' - will investigate that further although it ran OK beforehand like that, and ran with reasonably clear exhaust fumes when it did run.

 

How long have you had the boat and when was the engine previously run?

 

When was the diesel last topped up?

Saw it running on the 21st, and it was run from Gnosall to Wightwick that day or the next....and as far as I know, sat idle until yesterday. I paid for it Saturday and took it out yesterday :lol:

 

Not sure when the diesel was last topped up, but I've got 50L of fresh stuff in the back of the car if it needs it, as said will check out the integrity of the tank today.....

 

Maybe it is an ex generator engine and the green switch was the start button but has been bypassed by the key switch being added.

 

is the red switch 'engine stop'?

Yeah the red switch I'm pretty certain is engine stop - although I haven't had the opportunity to use it yet, on operation an audible click is heard around the fuel solenoid sort of area which makes sense. Nothing visually/audibly happens on operation of the green switch....

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Ignore my previous post as after having re-read properly, I think it's irrelevant.

 

But, on post 4 you said :-

the air filter housing seems to be a bit squashed

 

and Rogers post 9 suggested :-

On your main problem, black smoke is caused by over-fuelling, lack of full air inlet flow or over-loading of the engine such that the fuelling cannot be correct for the load demanded.

 

Have you checked the air filter yet?

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Ignore my previous post as after having re-read properly, I think it's irrelevant.

 

But, on post 4 you said :-

the air filter housing seems to be a bit squashed

 

and Rogers post 9 suggested :-

On your main problem, black smoke is caused by over-fuelling, lack of full air inlet flow or over-loading of the engine such that the fuelling cannot be correct for the load demanded.

 

Have you checked the air filter yet?

Lack of tools at the time it failed on me meant that I couldn't - just about to have a run over there to check it all - but the replies on here are rather helpful, delaying me somewhat! :lol:

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snipped

Yeah the red switch I'm pretty certain is engine stop - although I haven't had the opportunity to use it yet, on operation an audible click is heard around the fuel solenoid sort of area which makes sense. Nothing visually/audibly happens on operation of the green switch....

 

Looking at the red switch the diagram on it would seem to confirm that. Something rotating with a cross through it suggests 'stopping the rotation'. That coupled with the clicking around the fuel solenoid area are surely strong indications.

As regards the green switch, a quick trace of the wiring from it will soon indicate if it is anything to do with an alternator excitation, but there is nothing like actually seeing the job so you are best placed to sort it with your experience of DC systems.

Roger

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Well I think I've found the problem! Not fixed it yet though....

 

Started off easy and took the air filter assembly off. Looks like it's been stood on at some point (makes sense for where it is) and crumpled - not much of an attempt to straighten it out has ever been done though! The mesh round the outside seemed quite 'large' so not filtering much - is there meant to be some sort of paper/other filter element within it? Instead.....there was wire wool :lol:

 

I then had a crack at the fuel filter assembly, took the whole thing out and stripped it down. It was FULL of water, the separator at the bottom had filled right up and was basically supplying pretty much just water...makes sense as to why it stalled! Cleaned that out, wasn't too happy with the state of the fuel filter so it's on the agenda to be replaced soon now....and to be honest after I saw the bodged air filter, I wouldn't mind doing a full service purely for peace of mind....

 

I've managed to bleed it through to the injector pump inlet, at which point I started getting a load of white gloopy bits coming through the bleed screw (I fully removed it to get it all out...) Unfortunately this stuff has passed through right down to the injectors....as can be seen in the pic below:

imagehty.jpg

 

 

First off, what is this stuff? Is it just water? Water mixed with something? :S Will just cleaning it out solve my problem or am I looking at permanent damage?

 

Secondly, I'm not too worried about cleaning out the pump-to-injector fuel pipes, but what about the actual injectors? Is it actually possible to clean these myself, and what's the best way to do it?

 

Thirdly, removing the injectors....looks reasonably simple but don't want to mess it up. Am I right in thinking the assembly linking the injectors that then goes to the fuel tank return pipe will just remove, then I can remove each injector?

 

Hopefully this will sort it out....not best pleased to be honest that the previous owner didn't think to mention about draining the water off, especially considering he knew its my first boat! :lol: Though I will partially take the blame for not researching it I suppose....

 

Also....here's my rather rough temporary battery connection......definitely underspecced the cable (10mm) - but it was all I had to hand, and some nice person had already crimped lugs on either end.........was rather hot after three failed cranks though! Don't worry I'm not silly enough to leave it permanently like that :lol:

imagexjv.jpg

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Not sure when the diesel was last topped up, but I've got 50L of fresh stuff in the back of the car if it needs it, as said will check out the integrity of the tank today.....

 

 

Which leads me to wonder what symptoms are displayed by a diesel engine connected to a vitually empty fuel tank...

 

Imagine you are selling a boat. Still a bit of diesel left in the tank. Do you do you fill up the tank before selling it, or not....? ;-)

 

And another thought. Did you buy through a broker or marina or any sort of business that might be expected to give a warranty?

 

 

Cheers, Mike

 

And an edit due to our posts crossing:

 

I think the white gloopy stuff you ask about is just oil and water mixed together. I'm not a diesel expert but my gut feeling it if you can drain the residual water from the fuel tank and reassemble with new filters and fresh fuel and just get it started, a few minutes of running will remove any water remaining from the fuel system and you'll be away!

Edited by Mike the Boilerman
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Which leads me to wonder what symptoms are displayed by a diesel engine connected to a vitually empty fuel tank...

 

Imagine you are selling a boat. Still a bit of diesel left in the tank. Do you do you fill up the tank before selling it, or not....? ;-)

 

And another thought. Did you buy through a broker or marina or any sort of business that might be expected to give a warranty?

 

 

Cheers, Mike

I did think this - though the gauge was reading half, and it did drop a bit after my very short cruise....it's a valid point though and I'll definitely dump some fresh stuff in.

 

Unfortunately it was a purely cash in hand private sale....I'm not pointing fingers though, if anything I'm sort of glad it's happened as it's allowed me to familiarise myself with the engine....and I'm definitely glad it happened now when I was just taking it out for a spin, rather than on a weekend away....

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This problem is seen quite a lot with water in the fuel. Do not worry about the injectors just yet. here is my advice , do not put the new fuel in until you have checked the tank and removed al the water, a good way to do this would be if you can get a pump that goes to the bottom of your tank and pump some fuel out into a drum. This will show you if there is water in the tank as it will be sat on the bottom. when you have removed all this fill up your tank. Bleed it through and try to start engine. when you have got fuel coming through clean out your water trap and put in a new fuel filter and see how it runs. It is rare that water in the fuel will ruin the pump or injectors.. Hope this helps.

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This problem is seen quite a lot with water in the fuel. Do not worry about the injectors just yet. here is my advice , do not put the new fuel in until you have checked the tank and removed al the water, a good way to do this would be if you can get a pump that goes to the bottom of your tank and pump some fuel out into a drum. This will show you if there is water in the tank as it will be sat on the bottom. when you have removed all this fill up your tank. Bleed it through and try to start engine. when you have got fuel coming through clean out your water trap and put in a new fuel filter and see how it runs. It is rare that water in the fuel will ruin the pump or injectors.. Hope this helps.

The tank seems to be supplying clean-ish diesel now, I've got an old car windscreen washer pump so might rig that up and suck the bottom of the tank out anyway. Problem is, everything past the injector pump looks to be pure "white gloopy stuff" and it's refusing to start on that (understandably!) so I think flushing the pipes and injectors is a must.......have pretty much tried what you suggested, bar pumping the tank out and a new fuel filter......

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The tank seems to be supplying clean-ish diesel now, I've got an old car windscreen washer pump so might rig that up and suck the bottom of the tank out anyway. Problem is, everything past the injector pump looks to be pure "white gloopy stuff" and it's refusing to start on that (understandably!) so I think flushing the pipes and injectors is a must.......have pretty much tried what you suggested, bar pumping the tank out and a new fuel filter......

It is worth looking around the bottom of the tank (assuming the tank is low) to see if there is a drain plug.

Follow the fuel feed pipe to make sure there are not more filters or a manual/electric lift pump that may have a filter in too.

If the pipes are steel, then you may have to replace or get a very long pipe cleaner!

The injectors are usually held in by a two bolt clamp, with the return pipe on top, if the pipes are rigid then it will be difficult to remove them without disconnecting, so better to wait and have them serviced when everything else is sorted.

As the ignition switch is a Lucas type, should have a heat position before the start, as in Off, On, Heat, Start.

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It runs!

 

I borrowed the local engine expert from work (well one of them) and we spent a while trying to clean it out...the injector pump held alot of the water/oil in it, and so did the injectors themselves....which were well and truly stuck where they were. Eventually we decided to clean the pipes as best as we could by sucking clean diesel through and swilling out in a bowl of clean diesel too. Put it all back together, kicked it over, it ran rough for a short while and chugged out alot of white smoke as it burnt it off but then ran sweet as a nut.

 

Until further along, where I tried to turn it round.....gave it quite a bit of throttle as I was turning, and it started running very rough, coughed a bit of blue smoke, then eventually stalled....kicking it over again resulted in rough running for about 30 seconds and then it stalling again. Quite annoyed at this point, we managed to get it to drift to the towpath and tied it up....and operated the little hand pump on the lift pump which resulted in perfectly clean diesel..... After much head scratching, we kicked it over and it fired up straight away.....all the way back to the mooring...result!

 

His thought was that the bores might be slightly worn with it running usually at fairly low revs - can anyone elaborate on this?

 

Another thing worth mentioning - the entire instrument panel died at some point....resulting in the engine stop button failing to work. Easy, we thought, pull off the air cleaner and block it off.........the bugger only carried on didn't it! :lol: Suspected airleak in the manifold, ended up killing it by cracking open two injector feed pipes....such pikeys!

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Have a look now, there is usually a manual stop lever on the pump. If there is that will make life a little easier.

 

Also put some jet cleaner in the fuel, Redex comes to mind but there may be something better that the knowledgeable on here will recommend.

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Have a look now, there is usually a manual stop lever on the pump. If there is that will make life a little easier.

 

Also put some jet cleaner in the fuel, Redex comes to mind but there may be something better that the knowledgeable on here will recommend.

 

Petrol? Kerosene?

 

PC

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