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BW's plans to create a mutual charitable trust?


Lady Ga

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Since we (me and my significant other) decided to look into the costings of actually owning a boat(with a view to CC) one thing has been bugging me badly more than anything else....and I have to say, alarm bells are - a - ringing...

 

Is it just me, or is anyone else actually wondering where the money is going to come from for this "trust"?

 

My anxieties about this, not helped by picking up this months "Canal Boat magazine" ... And Steve Haywood's article, which he states and I quote:

 

"For despite the recent PR offensive from Watford, the fact remains that BW has simply not addressed itself to the major question raised by this move to mutualisation. Frankly, where's the money coming from?"

 

Its mooted that there is a shortfall of £30million pounds on routine canal maintenance but its suggested that the figure is nearer to ten times that figure(also quoted from said article in CB mag)

 

I have also spoken to a person who works for a charitable trust and he said to me that the only way would really be, of raising these sort of figures, were to indeed raise the licsence fee considerably...... not exactly what I want to be hearing, just before undertaking such a costly decision, especially when everything you have(financially) is going to be invested in a boat....

 

Is anyone else here concerned? or am I reading too much into this? OR are you reading too little into all the spin from BW?

 

I did try my best to wade through all the glossy text, flowery, fleeting suggested hints at what may be possible, nay would be possible if the canal system was turned into this "charitable trust", and I did try to see some comforting words, but at the end of reading it, I was left with an overwhelming feeling that for all the flowery words, what had they said, in reality?

 

Anyhoo, over to you, there may be someone out there more in the know(lets hope so I say!)

Edited by Lady Ga
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Since we (me and my significant other) decided to look into the costings of actually owning a boat(with a view to CC) one thing has been bugging me badly more than anything else....and I have to say, alarm bells are - a - ringing...

 

Is it just me, or is anyone else actually wondering where the money is going to come from for this "trust"?

 

My anxieties about this, not helped by picking up this months "Canal Boat magazine" ... And Steve Haywood's article, which he states and I quote:

 

"For despite the recent PR offensive from Watford, the fact remains that BW has simply not addressed itself to the major question raised by this move to mutualisation. Frankly, where's the money coming from?"

 

Its mooted that there is a shortfall of £30million pounds on routine canal maintenance but its suggested that the figure is nearer to ten times that figure(also quoted from said article in CB mag)

 

I have also spoken to a person who works for a charitable trust and he said to me that the only way would really be, of raising these sort of figures, were to indeed raise the licsence fee considerably...... not exactly what I want to be hearing, just before undertaking such a costly decision, especially when everything you have(financially) is going to be invested in a boat....

 

Is anyone else here concerned? or am I reading too much into this? OR are you reading too little into all the spin from BW?

 

I did try my best to wade through all the glossy text, flowery, fleeting suggested hints at what may be possible, nay would be possible if the canal system was turned into this "charitable trust", and I did try to see some comforting words, but at the end of reading it, I was left with an overwhelming feeling that for all the flowery words, what had they said, in reality?

 

Anyhoo, over to you, there may be someone out there more in the know(lets hope so I say!)

 

 

Looks like they want to trial it on the K & A:

 

http://www.waterways.org.uk/campaigns/news...and_avon_pilot_

 

Tim

Edited by Tim Lewis
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Significant savings could be made if the remuneration package was - corrected and freed from any anomalies.

 

British Waterways is a UK public corporation and part of DEFRA. It is responsible for 2000 miles of inland waterways including the third largest collection of listed buildings and property in the country (behind The National Trust and Church of England). However, unlike the National Trust, British Waterways directors pay themselves large large salaries which, including bonuses, which are disproportionate to their responsibilities.

 

For example, BW's Chief Executive for the year 2007/8 received 284,041 pounds (including a bonus of 61,500). How many moorings fee's does it take to pay his renumeration? His counterpart in the National Trust who has more responsibility earned just 175,000 and the Prime Minister 194,250.

 

Robin Evans, Chief Executive.

Steve Dunlop, Regeneration Director and Director, Scotland.

Nigel Johnson, Corporate Services Director and Secretary to the Board

Stuart Mills, Director of Property.

Vincent Moran, Operations Director.

Philip Ridal, Finance Director.

Simon Salem, Marketing and Customer Service Director.

Jim Stirling, Technical Director.

 

British Waterways plan to move from being a government department to an organisation like the National Trust. However, they have not aligned directors salary structure to that of the National Trust. BW's remuneration committee met this month and considered a plan to provide directors with a 15% salary increase. The organisation's annual report for 2007-2008 shows the chief executive and eight directors split a bonus pot of £310,454 Executive directors may receive up to 30% or 40% for the chief executive, on top of basic salary as bonus payable at the discretion of the remuneration committee. However, minutes of BW's remuneration committee in April 2009 indicated that any bonus payable for 2008/9 would be minimal anyway due to poor corporate and personal performance.

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WHAT!

WHAT?!! :lol:

 

BW CE earns what?

 

£284,041p! two hundered and eighty four thousand pounds a year!

 

I'm flabbergasted! I'm completely gob-smacked he earns MORE than our Prime Minister! OMG this is so outrageous its funny!

 

And he's getting away with it why? (no one noticed, perhaps?) nice job if you can get it, huh? Omgoodnessness.. phew x 30000

 

I was just thinking today, perhaps due to all the cut backs and savings having to be met by the new government, that this 'charity' mullarkey could well be pushed forward quicker than we think------ and as for cutting quangos (whatever they are) perhaps our dinamic duo, Nick and Dave could start by cutting BW's very outrageous wages perhaps?

 

I can't get over those wages! I need a lay down after that shock, at this rate our licsense fees will be about 10 grand!

 

:lol:

Edited by Lady Ga
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Looks like they want to trial it on the K & A:

 

http://www.waterways.org.uk/campaigns/news...and_avon_pilot_

 

Tim

 

 

yes that all sounds very familliar......

question: in reality what is really being said here?

is it me? or is it all words dancing round trying to look like something good and nice and really, underneath and reading between the lines....this could all end in tears? what if these "local communities" don't want to be bothered "taking care" of their stretch of canal? It all seems very flaky to me, if I may be so very bold.

Am I missing something here? or what...

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At the start of April 2012 B/W will become a third sector, the current new gov are backing the move and are actually snowballing it, there is a time line to the start date, more info when i get it. As for funding it, they have had a professional body to look into funding the move with positive feedback, they have had meetings with other charitable trusts and have gained valuable information,, amounts, who knows, will boaters pay more,, what do you think.

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Significant savings could be made if the remuneration package was - corrected and freed from any anomalies.

 

British Waterways is a UK public corporation and part of DEFRA. It is responsible for 2000 miles of inland waterways including the third largest collection of listed buildings and property in the country (behind The National Trust and Church of England). However, unlike the National Trust, British Waterways directors pay themselves large large salaries which, including bonuses, which are disproportionate to their responsibilities.

 

I agree that the top management of BW do receive quite large salaries but cutting these would not give you significant savings and can't be done anyway as I am sure they all have "water tight" contracts unlike some of the canals.

Not sure how they would raise the income as a Trust unlike The National Trust it would be impossible to charge for people to visit the canals.

One way they could increase revenue is to just charge one flat fee for Licence as apposed to this old fashioned fee where licence is charged by length. Then increase that fee to a more realistic amount say £1,000 per year.

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I'd be surprised if charges all round don't go up, although the licence isn't my biggest problem, it's the mooring fees which are now £568 a quarter for Ripple.

 

There is a danger in BW, and our marina, thinking that demand is so inelastic they can just whack up the prices. In a way they've got a point because even if I sell the boat it doesn't cease to exist and whoever buys it has to buy a licence

 

 

I agree that the top management of BW do receive quite large salaries but cutting these would not give you significant savings and can't be done anyway as I am sure they all have "water tight" contracts unlike some of the canals.

Not sure how they would raise the income as a Trust unlike The National Trust it would be impossible to charge for people to visit the canals.

One way they could increase revenue is to just charge one flat fee for Licence as apposed to this old fashioned fee where licence is charged by length. Then increase that fee to a more realistic amount say £1,000 per year.

 

At which point every trailable boat on the system moves to a caravan park or storage site, and they either buy visitor licences or cruise none bw waters

 

shoot self and foot spring to mind!

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One way they could increase revenue is to just charge one flat fee for Licence as apposed to this old fashioned fee where licence is charged by length. Then increase that fee to a more realistic amount say £1,000 per year.

 

Keep dreaming.

 

The owners of small boats wont pay £1k a year to float their boat on BW waters.

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I agree that the top management of BW do receive quite large salaries but cutting these would not give you significant savings and can't be done anyway as I am sure they all have "water tight" contracts unlike some of the canals.

 

Not in the same league as BA management then!

I would have said removing a salary that swallowed around 600 licence fees could be described as a significant saving...

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Which means that far from increasing revenue, BW would lose it.

 

i don't think so might lose a few but then the chances are the boat would be bought by someone that will pay the realistic new fee

 

Not in the same league as BA management then!

I would have said removing a salary that swallowed around 600 licence fees could be described as a significant saving...

 

You would still need a management team that would be expected to be paid a significant salary

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i don't think so might lose a few but then the chances are the boat would be bought by someone that will pay the realistic new fee

 

Why would someone pay £1k a year in licence fees for a boat that is maybe only worth around £3k on top of moorings and insurance?

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i don't think so might lose a few but then the chances are the boat would be bought by someone that will pay the realistic new fee

 

 

no, you'd lose a lot, because smaller boats are often lower in value, and are often bought because people want lower costs all round. your £1000k may well be 20% of the value of the boat, and no one who's only got £5000 to spend on a boat will be in a position to pay £1000 pa as a licence. With a 62 foot narrow boat my only realistic option is to moor on the Stratford Avon and the higher mooring fees offset the lower licence there.

 

However, with a 23 foot trailable I could more on the Lydney Canal, or the Grand Western, or the Neath Canal, or in the Tudor Arms Caravan Park (yes, I have researched this), my guess is Phylis would be off to a coastal harbour taking half of Burton Waters with her

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i don't think so might lose a few but then the chances are the boat would be bought by someone that will pay the realistic new fee

 

You would still need a management team that would be expected to be paid a significant salary

 

I'm fascinated.

Can you enlighten us on the analysis you've gone throught to arrive at £1000 as a realistic licence fee and £284,000 as a significant (presumably reasonable) salary for the CE?

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Why would someone pay £1k a year in licence fees for a boat that is maybe only worth around £3k on top of moorings and insurance?

 

Because they have 2,000 miles of canal they can use that needs to be maintained and to pay for that money has to be raised. The value of the boat or the length does not make any difference to the amount of facilities a boat uses.

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At the start of April 2012 B/W will become a third sector, the current new gov are backing the move and are actually snowballing it, there is a time line to the start date, more info when i get it. As for funding it, they have had a professional body to look into funding the move with positive feedback, they have had meetings with other charitable trusts and have gained valuable information,, amounts, who knows, will boaters pay more,, what do you think.

 

Is the positive feedback anything like the latest BW survey that found nearly half of boaters thought the canals had improved under Robin. (Details of survey on Narrowboatworld.com)

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I'm fascinated.

Can you enlighten us on the analysis you've gone throught to arrive at £1000 as a realistic licence fee and £284,000 as a significant (presumably reasonable) salary for the CE?

 

The £1,000 I plucked out of the air

If you look at my post I did say that £284,000 was to much and overpaid what I said was that finding a new CEO on a smaller salary say £175,000 would not produce a significant saving.

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Because they have 2,000 miles of canal they can use that needs to be maintained and to pay for that money has to be raised. The value of the boat or the length does not make any difference to the amount of facilities a boat uses.

 

So for a 20ft cruiser which can currently pay as little as £220 for a rivers only licence you want them to suddenly come up with an extra £780 a year. Come off it.

 

I suppose you currently own a large boat and are a little miffed at the little boats getting something cheaper tha you can

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Because they have 2,000 miles of canal they can use that needs to be maintained and to pay for that money has to be raised. The value of the boat or the length does not make any difference to the amount of facilities a boat uses.

 

no, but the value might well indicate the budget a person has to spend on their "hobby"

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So for a 20ft cruiser which can currently pay as little as £220 for a rivers only licence you want them to suddenly come up with an extra £780 a year. Come off it.

 

I suppose you currently own a large boat and are a little miffed at the little boats getting something cheaper tha you can

 

Nope I am not miffed does not bother me that smaller boats pay less than I do at present. The same that I am not miffed that a lot of people pay less tax than I do thats life. I am concerned about the maintenance of the system and how to pay for it. If you happen to have a better idea how to raise the shortfall that will not cost me any money please tell me.

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