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BW's plans to create a mutual charitable trust?


Lady Ga

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I got priced off the BW canals a few years ago, it just left my budget.

 

I still boat regularly, there are plenty of cheaper alternatives here in The North West, and I've since come across other people who have done the same.

 

For people on London wages the licence isn't much, but up here, on minimum wage for an average job, it's a very high percentage so most boaters are now business owners, directors, etc, and much higher earners.

 

Pay me £25000 a year and I'd run BW, and I'd know what boaters need, it'd be twice what I earn now, and better hours!!

 

There are plenty of boating alternatives, just look outside the Canal box. The trouble is, people dont, so the canals just get populated by the well off, and when they get too old there will suddenly no longer be canal users as no-one young could ever afford to run a boat now let alone when the costs go up.

 

Anyone who says they can must be on a very good wage.

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I got priced off the BW canals a few years ago, it just left my budget.

 

I still boat regularly, there are plenty of cheaper alternatives here in The North West, and I've since come across other people who have done the same.

 

For people on London wages the licence isn't much, but up here, on minimum wage for an average job, it's a very high percentage so most boaters are now business owners, directors, etc, and much higher earners.

 

Pay me £25000 a year and I'd run BW, and I'd know what boaters need, it'd be twice what I earn now, and better hours!!

 

There are plenty of boating alternatives, just look outside the Canal box. The trouble is, people dont, so the canals just get populated by the well off, and when they get too old there will suddenly no longer be canal users as no-one young could ever afford to run a boat now let alone when the costs go up.

 

Anyone who says they can must be on a very good wage.

 

There are cheaper alernatives. You, for example, run small GRP cruisers. The licence fees for these are minimal when compared to say an average 57ft narrowboat. There is the rivers only licence for those in areas where they are unlikely to use the canals, for example us. Visitor licences for those who keep their boats out of the water. EA waters, coastal waters the list is endless (so to speak).

 

I personally think the current licence fees are very reasonable, we currenly pay £246 for a 12 months rivers only licence and for that we get free visitor moorings, free facilities, very helpful lock keepers and the chance to meet many new friends along the way. It is inevitable that the cost of a BW licence is going to creep up over the years.

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There are some really good replies to this dilemma.

 

When I started this topic, I wasn't sure whether this topic had already been discussed, but either way, I thought that it should be mooted....(again or not, as the case may be)

 

Magpie Pat: you mentioned that we could be charged a few quid to empty elsan's? .....umm, straight away I saw a big problem with that....Im sure you would then end up with a certain few just emptying it into the cut instead of paying?

 

In reality, exactly how much could BW or what is to become BW as we know it, increase licsense fees? is there a legal limit like you have with land-lords....ie, they can't just hike up the price to something like double, can they?(for their tennants)

 

BUT if BW ceases to be, and a "new company" takes over, maybe they can start afresh with a whole lot of new charges? (omgosh, think of that prospect!) Is that a possible way round any red tape dictating how much an increase is deemed "fair"?

 

But.... if its a case of "The licsence fees need to double or the system shuts down", then what? We pay or fold....?

 

But what of the "Lottery Fund"?

 

If this becomes a "Charity" would it(BW) then be able to get much higher donations from that?

 

OR: Maybe we will end up with a "Pay as you go" boating, like on the Lower Avon, where you pay to do a stretch of canal or indeed river(as is the case on some rivers now, as mooted earlier by someone)....

 

Well, aint this good?

 

Nothing like not knowing what on earth is going to happen, hey?

 

I can't help feeling that BW will use smoke and mirrors to appeas us, then do a runner leaving us to pick up the pieces(once its too late) and they have long gone.

 

:lol:

Edited by Lady Ga
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BW say they can do what they want. Boaters keep their heads in the sand and do little except talk. If the User Groups were really strong they could do more, but boates will wait till it is too late & then blame the User Groups for the predicament that they are in.

Pessimistic Sue

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Ah, you quite right. (Sueb)

 

Then again, someone told me they attended a meeting once with BW, a supposed customer focus meeting and someone stood up to voice their opinion and a high ranking lady with BW stood up and said in no uncertain terms, "Well, if you don't like the increase in mooring fees then move your boat"

 

So if thats the attitude you get from high ranking BW hirachy then were well and truly stuffed, as it were.

 

They will probably turn round and say, if you can't afford it then sell your boat.

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If the User Groups were really strong they could do more, but boates will wait till it is too late & then blame the User Groups for the predicament that they are in.

Pessimistic Sue

The problem is that boaters are so busy arguing with each other (CCers vs On-line moorers vs Gin Palaces vs heritage boatowners ad nauseam) that they don't realise they have a common aim...to keep boating.

 

Maybe it's time to do what the Anglers have done and fold all the different little associations and form one big organisation, with one big voice.

 

SOW didn't work because it was just another little voice, not being heard.

Edited by carlt
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Ah, you quite right. (Sueb)

 

Then again, someone told me they attended a meeting once with BW, a supposed customer focus meeting and someone stood up to voice their opinion and a high ranking lady with BW stood up and said in no uncertain terms, "Well, if you don't like the increase in mooring fees then move your boat"

 

So if thats the attitude you get from high ranking BW hirachy then were well and truly stuffed, as it were.

 

They will probably turn round and say, if you can't afford it then sell your boat.

 

Yes but who too? anyone who would want my boat (a slightly tired ex-hire boat) is probably in the same financial position as me, and they won't be able to afford double the licence fee either.

 

The problem with lottery funding isn't that BW can't have it, they've had several grants, it is that "maintaining the canal system" isn't something that any of the lottery funds cover, preserved railways can't get lottery grants to meet their running costs either.

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As far as increased licence fees are concerned I think, whilst there is an opportunity to raise more money from these, the point of maximum return will be reached long before the necessary level to cover the funding shortfall. Ie everyone has a pricing point at which they will decide not to boat anymore and, unless they are replaced with somebody who will pay, their money is lost from the pot.

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BW say they can do what they want. Boaters keep their heads in the sand and do little except talk. If the User Groups were really strong they could do more, but boates will wait till it is too late & then blame the User Groups for the predicament that they are in.

Pessimistic Sue

 

 

The problem is that boating groups - no matter how strong - represent a small minority of people compared to the numbers of 'waterways users' that BW media men will say use the canals. Most of this majority don't, of course pay directly for this use. They may pay (currently) via local and national taxes but in future with a trust in charge what will happen?

 

What they won't do is pay if they don't have to! This was shewn on the K&A when BW tried to charge cyclists to use the expensive cycle track they had turned the towpath into. The result - the cyclists used the towpath and refused to pay. So BW, as has happened elsewhere, backed down.

 

Now before you say boaters could refuse to pay unless... we all know they can't. BW know where you live and where your boat is and can extract money via the law from you. Or they can simply stop us using the locks.

 

Going back to those who don't pay to use canals let's move away from the canals for a moment and look at our roads... It's local councils (using tax revenues) who maintain roads and footpaths - both of which will be included in the price of a house if you buy one on a new estate. People might complain about state of the roads but no-one is going to hand over money to the council volenterally to improve theirs if the council won't. In the same way the people giving money to a trust like a canal one is a non-starter - most will not while still expecting full use - and who can stop them.

 

The canals, towpaths etc are, to most people a given - a place for dog shit, a place to walk, cycle and so on. OK there are a few canal sights to see - like Anderton - but a BW trust doesn't have hundreds of stately homes full of stuff for people to stare at, thousands of miles of lovely coasts, interesting houses like the Beetles ones in Liverpool. Compared to that lot the canals are a non-starter.

 

People think they own the countryside, have the right to roam and cycle and get it free. They like their taxes to pay for it - it's governments and local authorities who feel it is money wasted that could be better spent getting votes from massive impressive projects.

 

One has only to look at the original Monty restoration to see this as Welsh Secetary Peter Walker (Spit) refused to sign to get Euromoney as HE wanted it spend on winning votes down south. (He got neither money nor votes and we didn't get a Monty restored by 1996.) Since then (still using the Monty example) the restoration monies have been sparse and currently the aim of buying bricks using public subscription brings in little compared to what is given to the National Trust, the RSPB (Nice birds) and others by public donation.

 

The bottom line on this is that canals are just not big public donation winners. Stately homes, birds, hospices, children in need, staving folks abroad yes, canals no. And no matter how they dress it up BW must know this and having had the Waterways Trust experience must have a pretty good idea that it won't work without big money coming in from somewhere.

 

At this point, knowing what a shifty lot they are, one wonders if BW have any real long term plans, or expect to grab the money and run.

 

And what exactly has really being cooked up behind the closed doors of fortress BW.

 

 

 

:lol:

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Charitable trusts are full of maggots. The RSPCA is one, and they come in for some flack. The various centres are given minimalistic budgets from a posh HQ where directors are paid large sums, and whose staff have little (if anything) to do with animals. Branch centre staff are underpaid, and overworked. Their latest move is to stop being a bolt hole for those with unwanted (old & incontinent) pets, and return to the "Prevention of Cruelty" factor to minimise their load. The result? More abandoned pets. There was recently a move to charge people to enter a branch to view pets needing homes. Centre staff were appalled - they saw their ability to carry out their purpose of re-homing evaporate.

 

A comparison: Gerbil, Cat, Dog, Pony - all one price - £1500. (Vet fees and housing extra and ongoing).

All boat licences: £1500 (but annually! and add mooring etc.)

 

You think that's silly?

 

I have no interest in going to a small GRP cruiser - I like a bit of weight on the tiller. At 45' my old tank is a bit of history - and my hobby. I frequently go nowhere, but enjoy the time I spend on board tinkering, and being somewhere 'They who get on my t*t*' don't bother me. With a prospect of someones unenlightened licence fee figure plucked from thin air that they consider acceptable and perfectly reasonable (I invite you to pay my recent increase) without possibly considering others abilities to meet said increase, then the canals will indeed become a play place for the idle rich or comparatively so. But only if the idle rich saw it as a place they would wish to play in - which in most cases they assuredly will NOT - "Which shall it be this month darling - St Tropez, or Hackney?". Meanwhile, the likes of me and I dare say many others, will sell up and try something less expensive. The cut? Been there - did that, until the rug was steadily pulled from beneath me aided and abetted by individual members and groups who thought it a 'jolly good idea'. Someone remind me who wins?

 

As the country wakes up to the fact that it is a skint as Greece, the kind of street violence seen in that country will escalate here into a few more 'tut-tuts', and rolling of eyes to the accompanied sound of a kettle being put on (if you can pay the gas bill). Those on fantastic remunerations will have a slightly harder time renewing the thatch on their second/third homes, while the lesser classes (oh yes - they exist, you have only been TOLD there is equality, and you choose to believe it) will have to give up certain things, in order to continue to exist by supporting the 'others'. Either that, or scrape the barrel bottom until an expense to great befalls, then it's goodbye to all that - at a rock bottom price.

 

The IWA press release as shown earlier through a link is typical of many words saying nothing. No plan, no committment, no facts, and all with underlying and alternative meanings - and nor have we. Only worthless opinions. The people running scared are those on lower and middle level salaries with mortgages and kids in school, making the best of what they have and seeking some pleasure from their mortal coil - at least - as much as they can afford. Many are on the limit, and most beyond it. There is indeed a rough road ahead for many, and much will be left by the wayside where the carrion 'class' will have their pick. Watch the auction rooms blossom.

 

It is true we are all born equal. But the experiences that follow make available to some certain knowledge, certain association, and certain 'education' that creates a separation from the workers, the organisers, and the directors. They are still no different from one another, it's just that the latter have been told more of the truth than most. 'Old Boy' system, maintained and supported by the 'Club'.

 

The future of the canal network? Where is there a privately owned canal in this country that has no external fiscal support, and on which the users are satisfied with their lot?

Any successful future will rely on how it is sold, and who benefits. If it cannot be sold to anyone, and the present community do not benefit from any alternative idea, then we are left with a National asset at the tax payers expense. Either that, or it becomes a 'stately home' with no fence, no security, a tiny maintenance force poorly equipped, and a community under excessive financial pressure that will cause it to fall apart into anarchy. Water Gypsies Rule - OK!

 

I hope I'm wrong.

 

Derek

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I hope your wrong too Derek.

 

As a person stood on the outside looking in on all this, Im wondering whether to take the plunge here or hold back and wait and see for a bit....we were'nt going to buy till November or December anyways...

 

I did notice that on Saturday, at Crick, BW are holding a public meeting on this very subject? whether you can get any sensical answers out of them, other than them dancing round the subject, dodging verbal confrontations, is another matter...

 

:lol:

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To clarify, the proposals don't mean an end to government funding, a grant contract is proposed, partly to recognise the scale of funding needed and partly because BW have statutory obligations which the government should pay for (the canals provide drainage for much of the motorway network for example).

 

because it's a contract other bodies can come forward offering funds in the knowledge that this will go to BW rather than be clawed back by the government

 

Being a bit more radical, the "trust" could perhaps be given the following powers:

 

a "drainage levy" similar to that which internal drainage boards can levy on land owners who benefit from their drainage function

 

a levy on council tax in the same way that parish councils, the police etc can do. There would have to be a formula and an upper limit for this.

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One of the problems with having been around and on the cut for thirty years or more, is in seeing the amount of change that has taken place. It jades the mind.

Newcomers will not see this, and to some extent are immunised from it which may be to the good, but not necessarily. If I were you right now I'd hold fire until something more definite has been worked out and seen to be 'working'.

 

An alternative name for a grave is a closed off rut. We get in them at times, and are at risk of not seeing them as so.

 

Derek

 

Edit: Reflecting on money - as you do - I now read our contribution to the EU is about to rise this year by 60%. From £4.2B to £6.4B. I'm considering starting a used underpants fund in Lieu of payment. Any subscribers?

Edited by Derek R.
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my guess is Phylis would be off to a coastal harbour taking half of Burton Waters with her.

 

That sounds like a plan! :lol:

 

I suppose you currently own a large boat and are a little miffed at the little boats getting something cheaper tha you can.

 

Oh No! A my boat is smaller than your boat contest.... Makes a change I suppose. :o

 

You could decrease your fees by hacking a bit out of the middle of your tube

 

You could also sell a kidney!

 

Young people and the poor will be denied access to a resource that is owned by everyone, not just the rich.

 

How about a BW means test - we all used to like them. :lol:

 

Hang on a minute though, if the canals are going to be run as a charity should not the service users be the ones who benefit from the charitable contributions? Guide Dogs for the Blind doesn't raise it's revenue from charging the people who use the dogs, Barnardo's homes don't meet their costs by dividing up the bills between it's residents. Your donation is vital, even as little as two thousand pounds can help keep one of these boaters in licence and mooring fees for a year. Or if you can make a regular donation by direct debit just £15 pounds a week can help provide beer in a canalside hostelry for a needy boater who would otherwise have to go without or pay for it themselves. Please give generously and help keep boating alive on Britain's inland waterways.

 

Where do I sign up. :lol:

 

Robin Evans has already sent out a memo stating that if he remained as leader of the charitable trust he would have to have a large pay cut, due to the fact that no other trusts would pay their leaders that sort of salary.

 

I wonder if we should all have a whip-round and collect a leaving present for him? :lol:

 

At this point, knowing what a shifty lot they are, one wonders if BW have any real long term plans, or expect to grab the money and run.

 

I bet they are tightening their laces and counting the pennies as we read! ;)

 

And what exactly has really being cooked up behind the closed doors of fortress BW.

 

Smells like fish to me. ;)

 

Charitable trusts are full of maggots.

 

That should have the anglers on their side... :lol:

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[quote name='Mick and Maggie' date='May 27 2010, 12:26 PM' post='535183'

 

 

I wonder if we should all have a whip-round and collect a leaving present for him? :lol:

 

 

Now that could raise some money! Form an orderly queue.

Sue

 

 

 

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Before they start charging more money, they could manage things better. There are empty spaces in our marina and have been for months - why have they not been let? This is London, it shouldn't be that difficult. It seems to take an absolute age to let a mooring now, far longer than it did under the old waiting list system.

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Before they start charging more money, they could manage things better. There are empty spaces in our marina and have been for months - why have they not been let? This is London, it shouldn't be that difficult. It seems to take an absolute age to let a mooring now, far longer than it did under the old waiting list system.

 

There's a BW mooring site just a mile up the canal from our mooring, and we'd often wondered why it was nearly empty.

Turns out it has been built within the blast zone of the nearby paint works and so carries a planning condition that no-one can stay overnight there!

Presumably whichever BW non-boater thought it was a good idea didn't realise that boaters sometimes sleep on their boats...

:lol:

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Before they start charging more money, they could manage things better. There are empty spaces in our marina and have been for months - why have they not been let?
Presumably whichever BW non-boater thought it was a good idea didn't realise that boaters sometimes sleep on their boats...

This is the point of the whole thing - or at least it should be!

 

There isn't going to be any extra money from Government; boaters can't afford to pay more; and the property investment model has been shown up not to be such a clever idea right now. But BW already doesn't have enough money to run the canals properly. So unless an oil well is suddenly discovered below Rotton Park Reservoir (just don't tell BP), it has to spend its money more wisely.

 

The best way to do that is to have people who know what they're talking about running the canals; and the people who know what they're talking about are, by and large, those that use them. Witness the two examples given here - I'm guessing if they asked you at the right time, then you'd be very happy to tell them what they're doing wrong. But they haven't done, so they continue to make expensive mistakes.

 

That's the real value of turning BW into a charity. It's accountable to a set of charitable aims and can, in theory, draw on the help of thousands as to the best way to get there. No-one said it's going to be an easy process, but it's got a lot more promise than the current top-down way of doing things.

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Is there a proposed structure for this mutual trust and if so, am I being hopelessly naive in hoping that boaters would have a share and a vote? I may be young(ish) and naive but I don't understand how you can have a mutual which excludes its customers. The whole point of being a mutual is that the people who are consuming the product/service/whatever become enfranchised.

 

isn't it?

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I am surprised that no one has mentioned the tax advantage of establishing a Charirty to run the canals. As a Charity they would be able to claim back 20% from each licence fee for every "member" who is a tax payer. It may become a bit complex because the fee payed may have to comprise of a significant proportiion being annual membership, and only a small amount licence fee, but I am sure there are accountants out there who could work it out. They would also be eligible to register for excemption from VAT on certain areas of expenditure. Whether such measures would cover the alledged 30million deficit I do not know, but it would go some way.

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Hmm, making the license fee a membership fee and claiming gift aid would be a great bonus but does anyone know what proportion of BWs income is currently derived from license fees? I'm assuming that BW publishes accounts somewhere...

Edited by Morat
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