Boiler stove advice needed

[Chrissyboy]

Hi everyone

 

I need some advice please if poss. I have bought a 70ft narrowboat and ideally I would like to fit a multi fuel boiler stove in the kitchen with hobs for cooking on. It also will need a back boiler and the ability to heat 3 or 4 rads running the length of the boat.

 

Can anyone recommend anything that may do the job please?

 

I want to use a wood/coal based burner rather than say an oil burner as I can obtain wood and coal extremely cheaply (my father in law owns a farm)

 

Regards

 

Chris

[andywatson]

Hi everyone

 

I need some advice please if poss. I have bought a 70ft narrowboat and ideally I would like to fit a multi fuel boiler stove in the kitchen with hobs for cooking on. It also will need a back boiler and the ability to heat 3 or 4 rads running the length of the boat.

 

Can anyone recommend anything that may do the job please?

 

I want to use a wood/coal based burner rather than say an oil burner as I can obtain wood and coal extremely cheaply (my father in law owns a farm)

 

Regards

 

Chris

I'm sure Wirigglefingers can help here.

She has quite extensive experience of this and has just launched a new boat with a Rayburn as the centre piece of the galley. It is configured to supply cooking and C/H.

 

Hi everyone

 

I need some advice please if poss. I have bought a 70ft narrowboat and ideally I would like to fit a multi fuel boiler stove in the kitchen with hobs for cooking on. It also will need a back boiler and the ability to heat 3 or 4 rads running the length of the boat.

 

Can anyone recommend anything that may do the job please?

 

I want to use a wood/coal based burner rather than say an oil burner as I can obtain wood and coal extremely cheaply (my father in law owns a farm)

 

Regards

 

Chris

I'm sure Wirigglefingers can help here.

She has quite extensive experience of this and has just launched a new boat with a Rayburn as the centre piece of the galley. It is configured to supply cooking and C/H.

[Chrissyboy]

I'm sure Wirigglefingers can help here.

She has quite extensive experience of this and has just launched a new boat with a Rayburn as the centre piece of the galley. It is configured to supply cooking and C/H.

 

 

I'm sure Wirigglefingers can help here.

She has quite extensive experience of this and has just launched a new boat with a Rayburn as the centre piece of the galley. It is configured to supply cooking and C/H.

 

Hi Andy.

 

 

Thanks for the info. Do you know how I can find Wrigglefingers? Thanks

[Grace and Favour]

Hi Andy.

 

 

Thanks for the info. Do you know how I can find Wrigglefingers? Thanks

 

I've answered on your other post!

[Chrissyboy]

I've answered on your other post!

 

Forgive me. I must be a bit thick but how do I find Wrigglefingers from your post Andy? As far as I can see you've only given me a name. How do I find her from that please?

 

Regards

 

Chris

[wrigglefingers]

Hi Andy.

 

 

Thanks for the info. Do you know how I can find Wrigglefingers? Thanks

 

I'm Here!

 

Bit pushed for time but I'll try to help later. The long and the short is that I've installed a Rayburn 216sfw suppling four radiators and the hot water on pumped system with a skin tank on the hull bottom, had to go for a manual valve as the only suitable thermodynamic valve was 230v and therefore not acceptable. I'll leave the valve open as experience dictates ....

 

Jill

[RLWP]

Forgive me. I must be a bit thick but how do I find Wrigglefingers from your post Andy? As far as I can see you've only given me a name. How do I find her from that please?

 

Regards

 

Chris

 

A generic reply. Wrigglefingers is a member of the forum. Top right of this webpage is a tab labelled Members. If you click that it takes you to a list of members, and also gives you the ability to search for them. Once you find a members details you can send them a Private Message (PM).

 

Does that help for next time?

 

Richard

[Chrissyboy]

A generic reply. Wrigglefingers is a member of the forum. Top right of this webpage is a tab labelled Members. If you click that it takes you to a list of members, and also gives you the ability to search for them. Once you find a members details you can send them a Private Message (PM).

 

Does that help for next time?

 

Richard

 

Hi Richard.

 

It does thanks, only Andy spelled Wrigglefingers Wirgglefingers!

 

 

I'm Here!

 

Bit pushed for time but I'll try to help later. The long and the short is that I've installed a Rayburn 216sfw suppling four radiators and the hot water on pumped system with a skin tank on the hull bottom, had to go for a manual valve as the only suitable thermodynamic valve was 230v and therefore not acceptable. I'll leave the valve open as experience dictates ....

 

Jill

 

Hi Jill. Thanks and I look forward to hearing from you later in more detail.

 

 

Kind regards

 

Chrissyboy

[andywatson]

Hi Andy.

 

 

Thanks for the info. Do you know how I can find Wrigglefingers? Thanks

 

Open a bottle of Batham's Ale.

 

 

(EDIT This is known as the cat and tin opener effect.)

Edited April 30, 2010 by andywatson

[wrigglefingers]

Open a bottle of Batham's Ale.

 

Best open one for Dr Watson too!

[wrigglefingers]

Hi everyone

 

I need some advice please if poss. I have bought a 70ft narrowboat and ideally I would like to fit a multi fuel boiler stove in the kitchen with hobs for cooking on. It also will need a back boiler and the ability to heat 3 or 4 rads running the length of the boat.

 

Can anyone recommend anything that may do the job please?

 

I want to use a wood/coal based burner rather than say an oil burner as I can obtain wood and coal extremely cheaply (my father in law owns a farm)

 

Regards

 

Chris

 

 

Right Chris,

 

This are my thoughts on the process. Fundamentally you are looking at something like a Rayburn, Esse, Stanley or Redfyre or similar if you want mixed fuel (coal/wood etc). Heritage are not suitable as they only produce oil/diesel stoves. Of the available stoves you need to be thinking small rather than large in which case it'd be either a Rayburn Regent or Royal if it's secondhand or a 216sfw if it's new. Stuart (soldthehouse) found a lovely Royal for not many pennies but I think he was exceptionally lucky, that said you will find a reasonable one at this time of year for not an awful lot. Be a little wary of eBay bargains as disconnecting and removing a Rayburn is not for the fainthearted - they weigh in at over 300kgs. Rayburns can be tricky to manoeuvre, the hob detaches, the doors come off and the fire bricks will come out but other than that they are a pretty solid lump of metal and don't like being manhandled. Beware of any warped or distorted panels due to over-firing, it does happen. Spere parts are easily available wither from Aga Rayburn for cheapest gen parts or from Tradcookers. The other option is buying a reconditioned one - there are quite a few reconditioners in the pages of google. I know that some will install on a narrowboat - Ian O'Brien in Frome for example and this company has done too. Country Choice.

 

The major safety issue is boiling the system and for that reason we decided to install a skin tank on the bottom plate to discharge any excessive heat - I do appreciate that that's nigh-on impossible on an already built nb and it maybe the case that it's overkill, but as Cobbett was a new build and it was only a few hours work for Dave-the-Builder, it made sense. Sueb (also a forum member) had some serious overheating issues which led to the stove being removed but, on the whole, my experience and those of many on here have been positive. You will need to be careful how it's stoked and not give in to the temptation to let it roar away. In my experience of growing up with two and having a number in different houses, each one is different and it's foibles have to be carefully learnt. Much of the difference depends on the flue height, Aga Rayburn recommend a flue height of over 4m but that's the standard for a house, and we all know of Rayburns on boats that have functioned well and safely with flue heights of significantly less. Nonetheless it is prudent to try to achieve as high a flue as possible as this will help the stove burn more effectively. As Cobbett is a new build, I have needed to have a double skinned flue which has been packed with rockwool to comply with the safety standards. this will also help as the exhaust gases will cool down more slowly at first and then cool when above the roof of the boat. The technical bods think that will aid the draw of the fire - I'm waiting to see whether this is true in practice!

 

The central heating system is pumped for the length running down the boat as per the new regulations for installation and the hot water will be produced in the usual manner. As I've not been allowed to set fire to the new Rayburn yet I can't comment how well it will work but everyone seems quite confident. I'll post when my inner pyramaniac is let loose, possibly next week (I'm hoping, I'm hoping).

 

Hope this helps, let me know if there's anything specific you'd like to know - I have the benefit of the ear of the boat builder for the next two weeks only so ask away and if I can't help further then I'll ask Dave.

 

Jillx

[stagedamager]

Hi Chris,

depending on space, if your restricted, i've just bought one of these SAFE CLICKY to go in "Judith Ann", it hasn't been installed, but seems to be good value for money. i will let you know how it goes, i managed to find one for under £500.

 

Regards

Dan

[sueb]

Hello. Our rayburn royal was 35yrs old when we installed it and it failed 20yrs later. Smoke billowed out of the back

Ours was installed by a rayburn expert and ran 2 radiators and heated water in the caliorfier; it worked on gravity. We found problems especially as we burnt a lot of wood. If I made the fire up to cook on Hubby couldn't see where he was going due to the smoke. We rarely had the fire on anything more than tick over so could warm a kettle or slow cook a stew. We also have a gas oven and hob as you need something different in the summer and to fast boil a kettle. They also take an age to heat anything, so if you go away for a couple of days you come back to a cold boat that takes till morning to heat up. We used to light the fire then go to bed with a hot water bottle.

We now have a solid fuel stockton 6 and I much prefer it. It doesn't take up so much room; the boat heats up very quickly and there is room for a kettle or saucepan to sit on top.

[Chrissyboy]

Right Chris,

 

This are my thoughts on the process. Fundamentally you are looking at something like a Rayburn, Esse, Stanley or Redfyre or similar if you want mixed fuel (coal/wood etc). Heritage are not suitable as they only produce oil/diesel stoves. Of the available stoves you need to be thinking small rather than large in which case it'd be either a Rayburn Regent or Royal if it's secondhand or a 216sfw if it's new. Stuart (soldthehouse) found a lovely Royal for not many pennies but I think he was exceptionally lucky, that said you will find a reasonable one at this time of year for not an awful lot. Be a little wary of eBay bargains as disconnecting and removing a Rayburn is not for the fainthearted - they weigh in at over 300kgs. Rayburns can be tricky to manoeuvre, the hob detaches, the doors come off and the fire bricks will come out but other than that they are a pretty solid lump of metal and don't like being manhandled. Beware of any warped or distorted panels due to over-firing, it does happen. Spere parts are easily available wither from Aga Rayburn for cheapest gen parts or from Tradcookers. The other option is buying a reconditioned one - there are quite a few reconditioners in the pages of google. I know that some will install on a narrowboat - Ian O'Brien in Frome for example and this company has done too. Country Choice.

 

The major safety issue is boiling the system and for that reason we decided to install a skin tank on the bottom plate to discharge any excessive heat - I do appreciate that that's nigh-on impossible on an already built nb and it maybe the case that it's overkill, but as Cobbett was a new build and it was only a few hours work for Dave-the-Builder, it made sense. Sueb (also a forum member) had some serious overheating issues which led to the stove being removed but, on the whole, my experience and those of many on here have been positive. You will need to be careful how it's stoked and not give in to the temptation to let it roar away. In my experience of growing up with two and having a number in different houses, each one is different and it's foibles have to be carefully learnt. Much of the difference depends on the flue height, Aga Rayburn recommend a flue height of over 4m but that's the standard for a house, and we all know of Rayburns on boats that have functioned well and safely with flue heights of significantly less. Nonetheless it is prudent to try to achieve as high a flue as possible as this will help the stove burn more effectively. As Cobbett is a new build, I have needed to have a double skinned flue which has been packed with rockwool to comply with the safety standards. this will also help as the exhaust gases will cool down more slowly at first and then cool when above the roof of the boat. The technical bods think that will aid the draw of the fire - I'm waiting to see whether this is true in practice!

 

The central heating system is pumped for the length running down the boat as per the new regulations for installation and the hot water will be produced in the usual manner. As I've not been allowed to set fire to the new Rayburn yet I can't comment how well it will work but everyone seems quite confident. I'll post when my inner pyramaniac is let loose, possibly next week (I'm hoping, I'm hoping).

 

Hope this helps, let me know if there's anything specific you'd like to know - I have the benefit of the ear of the boat builder for the next two weeks only so ask away and if I can't help further then I'll ask Dave.

 

Jillx

 

Hi Jill

 

Thanks for all the advice. I'll let you know how I get on as I bought a solid fuel stove that's an oven too. We're hoping to plumb it in to heat the radiators also..

 

The only bit I don't understand is the risk of "boiling the system". What do you mean by this please?

 

Regards

 

Chris

[Derek R.]

Dare I poke my nose in?

 

If you have more heat output than there is available heat exchange appliances such as radiators, the system will over heat when burning well. This will cause the water to boil in the back boiler and vent effusively into the header simply because there is not enough 'cooling' of the return going on.

 

We had a Rayburn in a cottage in Scotland that would boil like crazy - bad plumbing didn't help - but we had some memorable brimfull steaming baths!

Had a little Morso Squirrel running two rads and a water cylinder on one boat, and that could boil away too. Several times we had to run off hot water to cool the cylinder - hence Jill's skin tank - but that's a guess.

 

Over to Wrigglefingers

[wrigglefingers]

Dare I poke my nose in?

 

If you have more heat output than there is available heat exchange appliances such as radiators, the system will over heat when burning well. This will cause the water to boil in the back boiler and vent effusively into the header simply because there is not enough 'cooling' of the return going on.

 

We had a Rayburn in a cottage in Scotland that would boil like crazy - bad plumbing didn't help - but we had some memorable brimfull steaming baths!

Had a little Morso Squirrel running two rads and a water cylinder on one boat, and that could boil away too. Several times we had to run off hot water to cool the cylinder - hence Jill's skin tank - but that's a guess.

 

Over to Wrigglefingers

 

Yes, that's it, Derek. If you build a big fire and let it rip then the water in boiler side of the system will overheat and boil. The skintank is a heat dump device so that if the water overheats it can be rapidly cooled as it circulates, pushed round by the pump. The steaming bath or shower is a an option for me as I live aboard and therefore water is precious!

 

There are three simple things to remember. The system should have a means of venting any overheating water (ie steam) and that should be in a safe place. There should be a header tank to allow water to be replaced in the system. Don't over-heat the system in the first place. The skintank is not an option on a retrofit, but I am assured that it is worth having done if you are going down the same path as me on a new build. You do need to ensure that that the water will effectvely circulate - often gravity feed doesn't work well on a boat and the thermocycling effect isn't as pronounced as in other types of installation. A small 12v pump is needed here - there are some very small and quiet pumps available.

[Derek R.]

Thanks Jill,

 

Our systems have always been thermo-syphon and despite professional plumbers telling me "it won't work". It always has, but design and pipe layout is crucial - high out, low back, in at the top of a rad and return out at the bottom - just what the plumbers refuse to accept - pump or no pump.

 

With a thermo-syphon system, it is necessary to correctly balance the heat output from the boiler to the heat exchangers in the system - pipe run and balance is key to efficient operation. The downside of such a system is usually that there is much pipework at a level high up on the rad feed side. I've heard that it does also work when pipes from the boiler are kept low (as in domestic houses) but have never gone that route myself. I suspect water circulation would be slower if all kept low, it certainly appeared so when I built a model to test and compare.

 

Perhaps something else worth considering and as Jill has pointed out:

From the back boiler it is essential that a near vertical vent run is taken in as large a bore pipe as possible (usually 22mm) off of the system output line at its hottest point (out from the boiler) to take oxygenated (boiling) water and air up, and the pipe curved over into a recepticle that is connected to the system to feed the boiled water and any steam back to the output line further along (In a house, this pipe disappears up into the loft and is vented into the cold water cistern for the central heating where it cooled enough to prevent a 'boil around'). This vent must be open to atmosphere - not part of a closed system - but make sure its end is within the receiving receptical - you do not want any possible 'boiling' spattering internal panelling! Furthermore, do NOT be tempted to connect the returned water from this vent back to near the base of the boiler on the return side. If it is done so, what happens is you get a cycling of the boiled water sent straight back into the boiler on the return - more boiling occurs within this 'mini-system' without any being circulated around the rest of the system! - That's a 'boil around'.

 

Derek

Edited May 11, 2010 by Derek R.

[Alli]

Hello,

 

I am also looking into installing a stove with a back boiler feeding radiators and a calorifier. This thread has been fantastic at answering a lot of the questions I had. I was wondering if I could clarify Derek’s comments of a pipe curved over into a receptacle – would this be the equivalent to a header tank? or is a header tank needed in the installation additional to this?

 

Also could you advise on what distance away from the stove’s return pipe work would be a suitable distance to connect the pipe from the boilers boiling water vent?

 

Cheers David

[wrigglefingers]

Hello,

 

I am also looking into installing a stove with a back boiler feeding radiators and a calorifier. This thread has been fantastic at answering a lot of the questions I had. I was wondering if I could clarify Derek’s comments of a pipe curved over into a receptacle – would this be the equivalent to a header tank? or is a header tank needed in the installation additional to this?

 

Also could you advise on what distance away from the stove’s return pipe work would be a suitable distance to connect the pipe from the boilers boiling water vent?

 

Cheers David

 

Hello David, I'm not a heating engineer so this answer is based on what happened on my previous boat, but, it worked well and was safe. The curved pipe and small tank (about 15" x 8" x 2") was placed at the furthest end of the pipe run from the back boiler (Squirrel) and set, on the rear bulkhead, as high as the pipework would allow. I'm not able to measure it now but the cabin length was 45' and the bit up the wall would add a further 2' so the length from vent apparatus to stove was 47' or so. I would imagine that you could manage with less. The tank was lidded but the lid was loosely placed over the tank which was partially filled with water so that the end of the curved pipe was below the waterline as Derek states. The tank then fed back into the water system at the bottom. I never did boil the system - the best fail-safe is careful and monitored use of the stove.

[Alli]

Thank you very much Wrigglefingers,

 

I really like and interested in your idea of a skin tank (especially as a young lad I looked after my grandmothers house when she was ill in hospital - this had a stove with a back boiler and I forgot to turn on the central heating pump and ended up splitting the hot water cylinder OOOPPPSSS) I was wondering are you planning on using TRV's on the radiators? Also are you planning on running the water through the skin tank constantly or are you installing a thermostatic valve that will only let the water flow through the skin tank at a certain temperature?

 

Cheers David

[Derek R.]

Hi Alli,

 

Yes, the curved vent pipe should curve over through 180° and face down into the receptacle - header tank. Jill's seems to have been placed with its end below the water level, mine was not and ordinarily it's not necessary. What is necessary is for the top of the bend to be as high as possible within the confines of the boat cabin. How much is open to debate possibly, but at least six inches, and preferrably eight or ten. There also may be a need to have an overflow from the header tank to waste. Water when heated tends to expand within its confines due to oxygenating and becoming less dense. However, with such systems as are fitted within narrow boats, the over all capacity of the system seldom needs such an overflow - unless the header tank is extremely small. My header tank was a remote reservoir from a van's radiator system - quite small, but no overflow was needed. One such as Jill's sounds perfectly ample, and would never need to be much more than half full to function fully without any overflow problems due to expansion.

 

Unlike Jill's set up (which clearly works) my header tank was quite close to the stove, and so my pipe run venting from the boiler output was vertical and quite short. The drawback of my system was that the header tank fed down to a point quite close to the return side of the boiler - this allowed a possible 'boil around' if the stove was lit from cold and burned rapidly.

 

Though I have never tried it, it seems quite feasable (perhaps preferable) to connect the header tank to the OUTPUT side of the boiler on its way to the calorifier or first radiator (whichever is first in line - usually the calorifier). This would prevent any situation of such a short circuiting of the water heating system, demanding that heated water circulated the whole system rather than just a small part of it. I feel there is little danger from any problems of the header tank water feeding into the 'hot' side, as any oxygenated water from the boiler would have been vented beforehand. This is of course contrary to applications within domestic property which are generally cistern (header tank) fed to the cold return. But within boats, available space demands different solutions to similar problems, and of course solutions to problems that do not occur in domestic properties!

 

The most important feature is that the very first outlet from the boiler is the vent, rising to let off any air into the header tank - wherever it may be placed.

 

Derek

Edited May 26, 2010 by Derek R.

[wrigglefingers]

Thank you very much Wrigglefingers,

 

I really like and interested in your idea of a skin tank (especially as a young lad I looked after my grandmothers house when she was ill in hospital - this had a stove with a back boiler and I forgot to turn on the central heating pump and ended up splitting the hot water cylinder OOOPPPSSS) I was wondering are you planning on using TRV's on the radiators? Also are you planning on running the water through the skin tank constantly or are you installing a thermostatic valve that will only let the water flow through the skin tank at a certain temperature?

 

Cheers David

 

Not sure about TRVs - I will have a peer when I go to the boat today but I doubt it as I've used off the peg radiators from Screwfix so I suspect on off and drain tap.

 

There is a valve to the tank. We spent some time trying to find a 12v thermostatic valve but simply gave up as the one I found wouldn't have been robust enough to survive in what potentially may be a very stressed operating environment. We were forced to discount the the idea of a 240v thermostatic valve as I live on the cut and therefore cannot guarantee a 240v supply at all times. It was felt on balance, that a manual valve, left open was the way to go and would comply with CE marking requirements, but which can be closed as I become accustomed to operating the system. As I don't think anybody else has tried this system it's a case of trial (and no errors) and vigilance. Whilst I have considerable experience dealing with solid fuel Rayburns that has also given me a fair idea of what they can be capable of and while the total stove meltdown is the stuff of my nightmares, they can get a bit hairy if not closely monitored and their various foibles worked out. I do suspect that as we won't be able to achieve an optimum flue length though, I may have more of a problem getting the stove up to temperature rather than down at times. Mostly, I try to think of the Rayburn as an overgrown Squirrel, big brother to the real Squirrel in the corner of the living space. Can you tell I designed the heating system in the depths of winter?

 

There's been a lot of discussion on the impact of the fire regs on stoves and indeed, I don't have an Epping in the back cabin because when we ordered the stove it looked like they would be outlawed. The regs as they were finally published were far more balanced and sensible than we feared at one point. There is no connection between the BS fire regs and BSC or indeed RCD but the hook was provided by the insurer of the boat as their conditions state that the boat stove installation must conform to the relevant BS, not the RCD or the BSC. In the end, I simply wanted the boat to be as safe as it could be, as there's always something else that could go wrong!

 

Wx

 

PS my water vent into the tank may have been under water because Ellen was in charge of all things watery on the boat and probably overfilled it - the water was inclined to become a bit smelly in summer so she would clean it out and refill. It was never an issue - she was also responsible for the inclusion of the superfluous Squirrel in the living space. Apparently it's not real boat without one!