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BS8511


Dawnie

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Hi All

 

In a thread before Christmas someone asked whether this document had been published yet and I said I would check when I returned to work. Despite searching I cannot find that thread so though I would start a new one. (Search did not work because I did not know what I was looking for so all the combiations I used did not bring up the thread I wanted although the search seems to work!)

 

Anyway, I have asked the question and have heard back that the latest news is -

 

quote

I am keeping fit and well - thank you and trust the same applies to you? Happy New Year

I am advised that the publication of the COP referenced below has been slightly delayed due to various problems

However, the latest information available to me via BSI is that the document is expected to be published later this month

Unquote

So we still await the publication!

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Hi All

 

In a thread before Christmas someone asked whether this document had been published yet and I said I would check when I returned to work. Despite searching I cannot find that thread so though I would start a new one. (Search did not work because I did not know what I was looking for so all the combiations I used did not bring up the thread I wanted although the search seems to work!)

 

Anyway, I have asked the question and have heard back that the latest news is -

 

quote

I am keeping fit and well - thank you and trust the same applies to you? Happy New Year

I am advised that the publication of the COP referenced below has been slightly delayed due to various problems

However, the latest information available to me via BSI is that the document is expected to be published later this month

Unquote

So we still await the publication!

 

That's similar to the info I heard yesterday - possible date around January 19th I think.

Edited by wrigglefingers
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So the question is what will everybody do when it comes out?

 

Mr & Mrs Bill Boater? My guess will ignore it if they don't like the content.

 

Bodge it and Scarper Ltd "we only do the fitting out" will do much the same.

 

Maybe a few of the "proper" if any are left boatbuilders will be bright enough to realise the potential legal implications of ignoring it and be creative.

 

The BSS and their response will be of interest no doubt.

 

Maybe the delay is intended to build up the excitement!!! :lol::lol:

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So the question is what will everybody do when it comes out?

 

Mr & Mrs Bill Boater? My guess will ignore it if they don't like the content.

 

Bodge it and Scarper Ltd "we only do the fitting out" will do much the same.

 

Maybe a few of the "proper" if any are left boatbuilders will be bright enough to realise the potential legal implications of ignoring it and be creative.

 

The BSS and their response will be of interest no doubt.

 

Maybe the delay is intended to build up the excitement!!! :lol::lol:

 

Cobbett is being built to the new standards, and a right headache it's been at times. Nonetheless, we're nearly there and so she will stand as testament to the fact that it can be done. There has been a visual impact insofar as the extra space needed by the flues has meant that the stoves protrude into the living space more than I'd have preferred and the flue from the Rayburn will be much chunkier than originally planned - 7" stainless as opposed to 5" black vitreous enamel but she will be intrinsically safer than my last boat and that's a good thing.

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But how do you know what the regulations are if they have not been released yet?

 

When new standards are proposed the British Standards Institute issue a Draft Standard during the draft consultation period. Part of the consultation period is used to assess whether a new standard achieves all it sets out to do. In this case this is important for boats such as Cobbett that are started during the period of the old standard, but will be CE marked after the new standard is issued. If Cobbett does not conform to the new standard at CE marking time (likely to be May) then I will not be abe to get insurance for her, nor compliance with the RCD. The question at the moment is when will the new standards be incorporated into the requirements for BSS and whether they can be retrospectively applied in a diluted form. The Lindy Lou and other tragedies on boats has has a severe effect, and whilst there is consensus that many accidents are alcohol-induced, there are many things on a narrowboat that can increase the risk of fire on a boat when compared to a house. The new standards seek to reduce those risks by bringing the standard of installation closer to those of houses. There are many things that are demanded that seem petty to me given that I am a (relatively) sober and cautious boater but having seen the aftermath of a boat fire I understand why they have to be so.

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When new standards are proposed the British Standards Institute issue a Draft Standard during the draft consultation period. Part of the consultation period is used to assess whether a new standard achieves all it sets out to do. In this case this is important for boats such as Cobbett that are started during the period of the old standard, but will be CE marked after the new standard is issued. If Cobbett does not conform to the new standard at CE marking time (likely to be May) then I will not be abe to get insurance for her, nor compliance with the RCD. The question at the moment is when will the new standards be incorporated into the requirements for BSS and whether they can be retrospectively applied in a diluted form. The Lindy Lou and other tragedies on boats has has a severe effect, and whilst there is consensus that many accidents are alcohol-induced, there are many things on a narrowboat that can increase the risk of fire on a boat when compared to a house. The new standards seek to reduce those risks by bringing the standard of installation closer to those of houses. There are many things that are demanded that seem petty to me given that I am a (relatively) sober and cautious boater but having seen the aftermath of a boat fire I understand why they have to be so.

 

Jill,

 

Why do you keep linking BS 8511 with the RCD? It is not going to be included in the set of RCD Harmonised ISO standards which are used to assess RCD compliance. I have an email from BSI that confirms this. I believe the RSG in Belgium has to agree what standards form part of the RCD set, not BSI.

 

I suppose that in time perhaps ISO 9094 might get revised or a new RCD ISO written to incorporate some parts of BS 8511 but until then the RCD requirements specifically in respect of solid fuel stoves remain somewhat silent.

 

I agree that BS 8511 will probably be quite a good Code of Practice to work to when it finally appears and could well have insurance claim implications if not complied with. Also as you say, the Boat Safety Scheme will need to pronounce on how BS 8511 will affect their guide.

 

I just hope that the final issue will have moved away from all that bad plagiarising of Building Regs Part J and has actually looked at what the practical solutions that will work in boats should be!

 

I do appreciate that you had to get going with some sort of design brief for Cobbett as otherwise you would still be waiting like I am for the dreaded doc to appear so that I can even decide what make of stove to buy - let alone how to do flues etc etc!

 

Ah well it's a bit too cold to do much work on the boat just now anyway and we're more concerned about trees coming down and power going off at the mo.

 

Richard

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Jill,

 

Why do you keep linking BS 8511 with the RCD? It is not going to be included in the set of RCD Harmonised ISO standards which are used to assess RCD compliance. I have an email from BSI that confirms this. I believe the RSG in Belgium has to agree what standards form part of the RCD set, not BSI.

 

I suppose that in time perhaps ISO 9094 might get revised or a new RCD ISO written to incorporate some parts of BS 8511 but until then the RCD requirements specifically in respect of solid fuel stoves remain somewhat silent.

 

I agree that BS 8511 will probably be quite a good Code of Practice to work to when it finally appears and could well have insurance claim implications if not complied with. Also as you say, the Boat Safety Scheme will need to pronounce on how BS 8511 will affect their guide.

 

I just hope that the final issue will have moved away from all that bad plagiarising of Building Regs Part J and has actually looked at what the practical solutions that will work in boats should be!

 

I do appreciate that you had to get going with some sort of design brief for Cobbett as otherwise you would still be waiting like I am for the dreaded doc to appear so that I can even decide what make of stove to buy - let alone how to do flues etc etc!

 

Ah well it's a bit too cold to do much work on the boat just now anyway and we're more concerned about trees coming down and power going off at the mo.

 

Richard

 

Hello Richard,

 

I appreciate your concerns, I don't think I did intend to link BS 8511 to RCD, but looking at my post I agree it reads like I did. Apologies. The reason why BS 8511 has become critical is because unless we comply with the strictures and it is passed as having done so by the surveyor I will be struggling with insurance. It appears from what the surveyor is saying that the new standard will be used alongside the RCD requirements and there will a statement to the effect that the boat is compliant with BS 8511. I may be that I have managed to employ the most stringent surveyor and most diligent builder in the country, I can't say, but we will have tried very hard to follow the guidelines we've been given, whether we've done it to the surveyor's satisfaction is unknowable at this point. This is critical as I will have to be the accredited person to say whether Cobbett complies with both RCD and BS 8511 for documentation. The real question for this build is therefore no longer RCD compliance (that is a known requirement) but compliance with BS 8511 for insurance purposes, if, in the event of a boat fire, Cobbett was found not to have complied with the relevant standards, I would be found culpable.

 

As you can imagine, that is actually giving both the builder and me sleepless nights particularly as the insistence on compliance to the draft standards has been difficult, compromising the design of Cobbett and adding to the cost of fitting her in terms not only of material, but also time, as the implications and requirements have had to be thought through and new solutions designed and built. For example, instead of having a standard piece of flue pipe and chimney for the Rayburn, I'll have to have an insulated flue from stove to roof at 7" diameter and a further insulated chimney above roof height as we can't achieve the 3x diameter of flue clearance from the cabin wall lining demanded by the new standard, All that will need to be fabricated individually. If I lose my chimney, it'll take three weeks to get another and cost hundreds, the days of wandering into a chandlers and buying one off the shelf for £50 are over as it will invalidate my insurance. Not mention that much of the expensively produced heat is disappearing up the chimney rather than being radiated into the cabin space. All the areas around the solid fuel appliances have had to have the spray foam removed and SuperIsol used instead. Cement board or tile backing board is no longer acceptable and the SuperIsol doesn't handle well, but cracks and crumbles and is expensive.

 

Maybe I'm being a bit pessimistic here but it seems to be a part of how insurers seem to be viewing boats, The consensus here is that boat won't be built with wood linings in the not too distant future because insurance companies will be unwilling to insure anything that may constitute a risk. I know that it's tempting to blame everything on Elf 'n' Safety (we all know the dangers of getting drunk and then lighting fires, keeping explosive material inside a boat and the normal everyday accidents we all have) but really the real cause of these changes are the demands of the insurance industry in seeking to reduce their exposure to such a risk.

 

Yours in Deepest Gloom, Jill

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http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications...rtjconsultation

 

part J revision consultation has recently closed and it may well be the results of this that the committee for BS8511 are waiting for (never thought to ask that question, doh)

 

That's interesting! I did ask BSI to spell out the reasons for the delays in my last email just before Christmas but no reply yet (understandably with the weather etc).

 

Obviously there are a few things in Part J that are relevant to 8511 but the draft did seem to me to have lifted stuff almost without thought to where the stove was being installed ie surrounded by boat stuff and not bricks and mortar. As many will have noticed, the plagiarising hadn't even been done very well and stuff lifted from Part J had had errors introduced that weren't there in Part J!

 

I do hope that the final version will have attempted to consider typical boat construction and how to apply good practice for practical stove installation in a boat.

 

Part J presumably was developed by considering traditional methods in houses and "fine tuning" them. BS 8511 should do the same, starting with what seem to be reasonably safe traditional boat practices. Don't know why I'm saying all this again - I put stuff like it in my comments to BSI back in April!!

 

Richard

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When I spoke to my contact on the committee at the time of consultation I offered to set up some visits if they required to see first hand what might happen if they bring in the draft version with no alterations retrospectively. I was told that the BSS guy (can't remember his name offhand) was on the committee and that they had visited boats. You are right Richard, when I read the consultation doc at the time, it appeared that they had cut and paste from Part J. I tried to get some official representation on the committee as officials were invited but as a boat is not a building it was a 'no go'

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Thought I'd use this post to advise of a recent purchase. Been looking to upgrade my Morso fire surround to include heat retardent material which had been omitted in the original build. With quotes from £30 downwards I eventually bought Gypsum Fireline from Jewsons 600mm x 300mm for £8.71 inc Vat bargain or what?! Just highlights what I've always said about Marine applications think of a number then double it if its required for a boat!!

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Thought I'd use this post to advise of a recent purchase. Been looking to upgrade my Morso fire surround to include heat retardent material which had been omitted in the original build. With quotes from £30 downwards I eventually bought Gypsum Fireline from Jewsons 600mm x 300mm for £8.71 inc Vat bargain or what?! Just highlights what I've always said about Marine applications think of a number then double it if its required for a boat!!

 

You can also use cement based board aimed at shower/wet areas - sold by B&Q in 8x4 sheets for about £30.

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