Sterling or Gibbo?

[kendo]

Hi folks.

 

our boat currently has no charging system at all.

the 1200W PSW inverter is dangling off of 1x leisure.

 

We've been told we have space for 4x leisures in the 'ole.

and we'd like to add some flexible solar panels in future.

 

I've been reading through the threads here for two years,

understood some stuff, but still have a lot to learn. We

want to CC with our boat once the electrics are finished.

 

Sorry for the preamble with facts, but here's the question.

 

The bloke who's agreed to do our electrics says he uses

Victron and Sterling Products. Because they're reliable,

and Sterling is a British company (with bits from China).

 

sounds fair enough.

 

But i'm also quite taken by the usefulness and simplicity of

Gibbo's SmartGuage, and wondered if the 'SmartBank' would be

more use (in our situation), than a Victron or Sterling solution.

 

I figured it would be better to ask, than mix and match inappropriate systems.

If people could share their experiences and recommendations, we'd be grateful.

 

thankyou.

[DHutch]

The victron stuff has a lot of support, and we have had no problems with our sterling charger in the last 18 years. Some of the newer sterling stuff can be had from ebay and similar under other brands with a potential saving if your into that sort of thing.

 

Presumably the inverter is a stand-alone inverter rather than an inverter charger such as the victron phoenix multi's?

 

Four leisure batteries is very much to norm (4*110Ah) in the form of some fairly boring opencell wet acids.

 

Smart gauges seems a nice piece of kit although ive never used one and personal have aways got on fine without (we have a decent voltmeter and fairly frugal usage patterns)

 

Nothing wrong with mixing brands, although its easy to spend a lot of money when you get going!

 

Depends also on your usage of the boat and what you want to know from your gauges.

 

 

 

Daniel

[kendo]

Hi Daniel.

The victron stuff has a lot of support, and we have had no problems with our sterling charger in the last 18 years.

thanks.

Presumably the inverter is a stand-alone inverter rather than an inverter charger

standalone, cheap and cheerful ( ithink). the seller said its Pure Sine Wave, but we don't know if that can be trusted.

Hoping to change it anyway. Or maybe keep it around for laughs/backup.

 

Four leisure batteries is very much to norm (4*110Ah) in the form of some fairly boring open cell wet acids.

nod... that's what it's looking like. forum advice warned me off splurging on gel marine batteries. thanks folks.

 

Nothing wrong with mixing brands, although its easy to spend a lot of money when you get going!

lol...i appreciate that. a lot of wallet flexing. but this is where i'm a bit stuck. Gibbo's system (forgive my lack of

understanding) does not require shunts (?!), but the sterling system is built around them? Isn't bunging a smartguage

onto a sterling self-defeating ?

[blackrose]

Gibbo's system (forgive my lack of understanding) does not require shunts (?!), but the sterling system is built around them? Isn't bunging a smartguage

onto a sterling self-defeating ?

 

I'm not quite sure what piece of Sterling equipment you're comparing with the Smartgauge or exactly what you're trying to achieve?

 

You're correct that the Smartgauge doesn't require a shunt but it just gives you a voltmeter and battery status in % (the most accurate you can buy). What it can't tell you is amps going in or out at any given moment which is useful sometimes. I think only a battery monitor with a shunt can do that.

 

There's nothing to stop you having a Smartgauge and a battery monitor with a shunt if you want - if you feel like spending the dough. You can also have a Smartgauge and any other bit of Sterling or Victron kit - as far as I'm aware they're not mutually exclusive.

Edited January 5, 2010 by blackrose

[kendo]

Hi BlackRose.

I'm not quite sure what piece of Sterling equipment you're comparing with the Smartgauge or exactly what you're trying to achieve?

Sorry.... Complete new charging system for CC narrowboat. Undecided on Sterling/Victron or SmartBank/Gauge.

Not enough knowledge or experience. Electrician wants to use tried and tested Victron, but as Gibbo's crew are

British workers too, i thought i'd ask for people's experience under field conditions.

 

You're correct that the Smartgauge doesn't require a shunt but it just gives you a voltmeter and battery status in % (the most accurate you can buy). What it can't tell you is amps going in or out at any given moment which is useful sometimes. I think only a battery monitor with a shunt can do that.

thankyou for explaining.

 

There's nothing to stop you having a Smartgauge and a battery monitor with a shunt if you want - if you feel like spending the dough.

from what you said above, seems pointless. But what about a smartguage and smartbank combo.

how would that stack up against the Victron stuff? not so much in dosh terms, but for ease of use,

informative stats, and convenience.

 

You can also have a Smartgauge and any other bit of Sterling or Victron kit - as far as I'm aware they're not mutually exclusive.

i see... thankyou. As Daniel was saying. i wasn't aware of that.

[blackrose]

from what you said above, seems pointless. But what about a smartguage and smartbank combo.

how would that stack up against the Victron stuff? not so much in dosh terms, but for ease of use,

informative stats, and convenience.

 

Well, if you are CCing and don't envisage being on shore power then a mains battery charger isn't going to do much unless you have a generator or a Travelpower (like a big alternator which runs off your engine and produces lots AC power).

 

So you need to decide how you want to charge your batteries - engine or generator (plus supplementary sources such as solar and wind).

 

Some people move around a lot and just use the engine and alternator(s), while others have found they needed a generator. Fewer still say they survive solely on solar panels but most peoples' power consumption would make this impossible.

 

The Smartgauge is a battery monitor and I think the Smartbank links twin alternators to increase charge, but I'm not sure what else it does as I don't have one. If you have twin alternators you can certainly have both.

 

I'm still not sure what Victron "stuff" you're stacking up against the Smartgauge/bank?

[NB Willawaw]

I fit electrical systems and usually advocate Mastervolt with a SmartGauge meter.

 

If the person that you are using is a true professional, he will quite happily discuss his preferences with you and explain his

choice.

 

Beware of people who also supply the equipment as they will often go where they can get the best deal, so are rarely impartial.

 

This is one of the reasons why I won't sell the equipment itself and prefer the boater to purchase it themselves directly.

 

Your electrical expert should have asked you lots of question about your intended usage, then come up with a system that will do the job in your

application.

 

As a matter of course, he should have explained the system and supported his proposals.

[Ray]

Forgive me for dipping my toe in this one but I think the OP hasn't quite grasped a few things.

 

Firstly the battery bank. I'd recommend that they do a power audit - try to work out how much electricity they are likely to use in terms of amps per day. I think the perceived wisdom is to then add 50% as a safety margin and then double that figure for the number of batteries as it is not considered good to drop your batteries below 50% of their capacity rating.

 

For example (and these are just figures to demonstrate the calculation): Fridge: 4 amps (continuous) = 4 amps x 24 hours = 96 amps/hours [that's almost two 100 AH batteries alone if you allow for the don't drop thew batteries below 50% capacity rule]. Four 20w lights for (average 6 hours) is approx 7 amps for 6 hours or 42 amps/hours. Throw in water pump, shower pump (both of which are generally negligible in terms of power consumption) and anything else (including the charger for the computer and mobile phones) and the figure soon adds up. And we haven't thought about a mains inverter and how much current that will use.

 

Then look at cruising intentions. Do you plan to cruise every day or are you likely to want to stay moored up for a few days? Will you cruise for several hours or just a few minutes (so to speak)? If you're cruising frequently you could limit use any mains based equipment - washing machine - to when the engine is running. That won't necessarily fully counterbalance the current you're using from the batteries but will go a long way towards it.

 

Finally consider your charging plans. When running the engine will charge the batteries. A generator/charger or similar will do likewise. If you have access to mains you can use a charger but as a CCer this option is unlikely. You'll need an inverter to generate mains from the batteries and then you have to put the power back into those batteries. Alternatively, you have no inverter and just use a generator when you want mains. Don't forget there are limitations on when you can run engines/generators just to charge batteries or power mains based equipment.

 

You'll probably benefit from something that allows you to use both alternators to charge your domestic battery bank once the starter battery has been charged (and if you run a bow thruster you may need to consider charging those batteries as well).

 

I don't think that we have quite enough information to answer the question the OP posed but I would suggest that just four batteries in the domestic bank may not be enough.

 

Hope that is of some use.

[churchward]

For battery charging on our boat we have one of the Sterling Alternator to Battery Chargers that have built in battery bank splitting. They are very easy to fit and it works well on our boat. They are not cheap though. We also have a Smartgauge to monitor state of charge etc. (first rate bit of kit)

 

If I was to replace the charging system due to something breaking down I would consider the Smartbank from Gibbo. It is especially good when coupled to the smartgauge and is excellent of you have multiple sources of charging that only connect to one bank or another so that these can be shared.

[bottle]

Hi Kendo

 

You asked what we have and how it works.

 

Live aboard all electric boat.

 

Fitted with: washer/dryer, integrated fridge. integrated freezer, fan oven, and hob.

 

All other 'electrics' are 24volt.

 

Battery bank: six 113 amp/hr sealed wet batteries, wired in 24volt configuration, giving I think 339amp/hr bank not taking in consideration the Peuket factor etc.

 

Victron multi. 24volt/2000Kva/50amp. voltage/inverter/charger.

 

Cummins-Onan generator, 7Kw.

 

Beta 43 engine with, 50 amp and 150amp alternators, 50 amp/12volt for engine battery and 80amp/24volt for domestics. They obviously cannot be run in tandem.

 

The generator/charger will charge the batteries twice as fast (time wise) as the engine /alternator. ( have checked this, with those that know and is to be expected, it is to do with the voltage output of the alternator and the charger, I think I understand but to explain is another matter )

 

If the batteries are 100% on the Smartgauge at 20:00Hrs (usually shows about 95% at 22:00Hrs and we have only had lighting and the laptop running, no TV)then by the morning they will be showing around 58% maybe even lower the next morning, all that power has been used by the fridge and freezer, experimenting at the moment with turning off the fridge and freezer over night.

 

 

Edit: Sorry, How does it work? Not sure but it does and we have no major problems. Only been on the boat four months so still adjusting our life style and getting to know what is and what is not possible.

Edited January 5, 2010 by bottle

[blackrose]

You'll probably benefit from something that allows you to use both alternators to charge your domestic battery bank once the starter battery has been charged (and if you run a bow thruster you may need to consider charging those batteries as well).

 

I don't think that we have quite enough information to answer the question the OP posed but I would suggest that just four batteries in the domestic bank may not be enough.

 

Hope that is of some use.

 

I only have 405 a/h (3 x 135) of domestic batteries and I was thinking of adding another battery. I've never done a proper power audit but you're right, it's the starting point for these considerations.

 

Anyway, I have 2 x 70amp alternators but I don't want to combine them because the start alternator also charges my bow thruster batteries and it's a system that works well so I don't want to mess with it.

 

Although I only have about 200 usable amp hours, I have a gas fridge which means there's no constant draw on the batteries.

 

I can either charge with the engine and single 70 amp alternator (which puts out about 46 amps max), or with a generator and 70 amp charger (which puts out 69 amps max).

 

My question is: what would be the advantage of adding more batteries to create a bigger bank? Is it simply longer periods between charging? If so, then surely that benefit is cancelled out by longer charging times?

 

So I guess if I want a 540a/h domestic bank I might need a bigger alternator too?

[mrsmelly]

Hi Kendo

 

You asked what we have and how it works.

 

Dont forget room to fit the six billion litre diesel tank to make it possible to use all the lektric stuff....

[nb Innisfree]

For batt bank size you need to calculate daily usage and for a well equipped boat that will work out about 140 Ah. I would say, to keep voltage reasonable, don't go below 60% SOC and on a daily basis only charge to 80% SOC to keep charging efficiency near to 100% and therefore quick, with a long equalising charge once a week. So from from 60% SOC to 80% SOC equals 20% of batt capacity, that means a total capacity of 700 Ah. We have 8 batts which exceeds this but 6 or 5 x 110Ah would be quite good. When our batts are healthy we can replace our daily usage in less than one hour due to large bank and large alt.

 

We have a Smartguage to augment a Victron battery monitor but as I estimate our batts have lost more than half their capacity the Smartgauge is not accurate so it can only be used as a second voltmeter. Sooner or later your batts capacity will drop below 50% and you will be using them ok for quite a while like that before replacement so for that reason I wouldn't recommend total reliance on a Smartgauge. A shunt based monitor tho not accurate for percentage is very handy as an amp hour counter and ammeter (+ voltmeter, in fact we use only amps and voltage to assess state of charge)

 

With a large batt bank, a large alternator + large inverter there is no need for extra generating capacity to run a washing machine. If alternator is large enough and is run at correct voltage it will equal a generator for charging.

 

A very handy bit of kit is our Victron Multiplus, expensive but worth it IMO, it runs any bit of domestic 230v kit and can charge batts from shorepower or our 2kW genny.

 

We have a Sterling alt controller which works fine, handy as you can select batt type to apply correct charging voltage.

 

Edited to add: A large heavy duty alternator such as a Leece Neville is good (between about 20% to 30% of batt capacity) it will charge at a lower speed so you can fit a larger pulley on it to increase belt wrap + double v belts will be very reliable and forgiving, hardly any need to adjust tension.

 

Look at Gibbo's Smartgauge webpage.

Edited January 5, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[KenK]

Hi Kendo,

I have a Smartgauge / Smartbank system fitted to my boat and also a Sterling inverter.

 

The Smartgauge / Smartbank monitors the state of charge of the batteries, starter and lesiure and couples the two alternator outputs together to charge the lesiure batteries once the starter battery is fully charged. I purchased this system from Gibbo and there is no doubt it does everything claimed for it, it's also very simple to fit.

 

What it is not is an inverter, you need an inverter to convert the battery DC (Direct current) into AC (Alternating current) to supply any items of equipment on the boat which require the normal household 230 V AC supply. My inverter was supplied with the boat and is a Sterling 3kW Pure Sinewave unit, to date nearly four years it has performed without a problem. If you do not intend to use any equipment which uses standard mains electricity then you don't need an inverter, DC equipment is available but the cost is higher than the equivalent AC version, economies of production.

 

I would recomend the Smartgauge, it does not cost a fortune and it is easy to fit and provides all the information you need to keep an eye on the batteries. The Smartbank is good if you have as I do two fairly small alternators and it does speed up the time taken to recharge the lesiure batteries.

 

As for the inverter you pays your money and takes your choice, some are just inverters, others will also charge the batteries when connected to shore power. Expensive is not always better, Sterling import from China but so do many others as most semiconductor production comes from the Far East these days.

 

An earlier post mentioned doing a power audit, excellent advice, doing it now and allowing for future expansion will save money in the long run.

 

Good luck with the boat

 

 

Ken

[blackrose]

Dont forget room to fit the six billion litre diesel tank to make it possible to use all the lektric stuff....

 

Yes, given that gas safety is important but fairly simple to maintain on boats, while getting the electricity generation, storage and consumption balance is probably the most complex and difficult thing to achieve, I don't understand the enthusiasm for gas-free, all-electric boats.

Edited January 5, 2010 by blackrose

[Nickhlx]

I have a Victron 12/3000/120 and whilst it seems to perform well, still takes a bit of learning / understanding....

 

As soon as time/funds allow, I will be installing a Smartgauge as well, if only to verify the readings it can from the Victron stuff, which all cost about 10 times the price.

 

Nick

[churchward]

We have a Smartguage to augment a Victron battery monitor but as I estimate our batts have lost more than half their capacity the Smartgauge is not accurate so it can only be used as a second voltmeter. Sooner or later your batts capacity will drop below 50% and you will be using them ok for quite a while like that before replacement so for that reason I wouldn't recommend total reliance on a Smartgauge. A shunt based monitor tho not accurate for percentage is very handy as an amp hour counter and ammeter (+ voltmeter, in fact we use only amps and voltage to assess state of charge)

Oh dear it is a good job Gibbo's attention is elsewhere!!

 

What you say is the inaccuracy not the Smartgauge. The device is a very accurate measure of the state of charge what you are confusing I suspect is that when it says it is 100% charged it means 100% of it's original capacity. This is not so it is showing that it is 100% full given the state of the batteries involved ie if your battery bank can now only accept 300 amp/hr charge (originally they were say 400 amp.hrs) the smartgauge measures SOC against what the capacity is now not what it used to be so when it says it is 100% SOC it is at the 300 amp/hr level.

[nb Innisfree]

Oh dear it is a good job Gibbo's attention is elsewhere!!

 

What you say is the inaccuracy not the Smartgauge. The device is a very accurate measure of the state of charge what you are confusing I suspect is that when it says it is 100% charged it means 100% of it's original capacity. This is not so it is showing that it is 100% full given the state of the batteries involved ie if your battery bank can now only accept 300 amp/hr charge (originally they were say 400 amp.hrs) the smartgauge measures SOC against what the capacity is now not what it used to be so when it says it is 100% SOC it is at the 300 amp/hr level.

 

This is what Gibbo states himself in the instruction provided with Smartgauge, i.e. Smartgauge is not accurate if batts have lost more than 50% of their capacity. I'm not criticising Smartgauge, it's a clever bit of kit (as is Gibbo!) just stating the facts.

 

Your example is still within that 50% so will be accurate.

Edited January 5, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[tomsk]

All that needs to be remembered is that Charlie boy is an ass with re-badged gear and a marginal attitude to customer sevice whereas Gibbo is a smart-ass with a condasending attitude.

[churchward]

This is what Gibbo states himself in the instruction provided with Smartgauge, i.e. Smartgauge is not accurate if batts have lost more than 50% of their capacity. I'm not criticising Smartgauge, it's a clever bit of kit (as is Gibbo!) just stating the facts.

 

Your example is still within that 50% so will be accurate.

Yes your right he does say that. It seemed to me from what you wrote that you were saying it was inaccurate full stop but I agree once you get below 50% of original bank capacity it loses it's accuracy.

 

All that needs to be remembered is that Charlie boy is an ass with re-badged gear and a marginal attitude to customer sevice whereas Gibbo is a smart-ass with a condasending attitude.

Yawn! Nice constructive post there.

 

I can't say anything about Mr Sterling but from my dealings with Gibbo on here and with his company l I have always known him to be generous and helpful.

Edited January 5, 2010 by churchward

[DHutch]

For comparison this is what we have. (24v system, but ive done most of the sums assuming your using 12v)

 

-Dedicated domestic alternator (30amps 24v, equiv to 60amp 12v, which is small these days)

-Bank of 4*110Ah 12 batteries (wired to give 220ah 24v, equiv 440Ah 12v)

-50watt fridge (2amps at 24v, 4amp at 12) that runs approx 50% duty cycal (so if 12v, 4amp*12hours=24Ah a day) We also turn the fridge off over night for noise, and fire it back up in the morning, when it runs almost all day. Hence still acheaving a 50% duty cycal.

-Lighting is mainly florencent fittings, most of which are 8 or 16watt. Average maybe 2*8+2*16 (32watts, which is 2.5amps at 12v) for two-three hours because we got to bed early on the boat 2.5*3=7.5Ah a day average.

-Plus water pumps, shower pump drain, (high current draw, but very short operation time) call it 3.5 Ah for everything else.

 

24 + 7.5 + 3.5 = 35 Ah per day (12v equiv), which with a 440Ah battery bank, aiming to use 50%, suggests around 6 days [ (440/2)/35=6.3 ]

 

Its not quite that simple in the real world. But given that experience shows that 4-5days is quite possable but a week pushing it, not bad!

 

 

 

 

We basically only use the boat when cruising (moving daily) so typically there's very little worry about elec as its replaced each day by runing the enigne to move the boat. When we are stopped for more than 4-5days or are working on the boat with power tools we have a small 1kw petrol honda genny which we can bring to the boat which can be used to provide 240vac to the boat which runs everything including a sterling 25amp (50amp 12v equiv) charger which tops up the batterys .

 

We also have a small inverter which is used to run a laptop from time to time (mainly again when cruising) which draws around 70watts (6amps if 12v) but had be excluded from the above calc.

 

We dont have a starter battery or second alternator for it as the engine is not elec start. (its a steam engine)

 

 

 

 

In terms of keeping an eye on the state of play we have shunt based ampmeter which allows us to view the current going in or out of the batteries at any time, and a volt meter which can be used to measure the voltage.

- This is about as basic as you can (no electronics) but the ampmeter is useful to view you current usage, and with care the voltmeter can be used to keep track of the state of charge be recording/noting the voltage each morning (after a peroid of zeroload during the night).

 

 

 

Daniel

[nb Innisfree]

Dhutch

 

With due respect I think your estimate is a bit optimistic, do you have an amp hour counter?, this is much more accurate, very easy to miscalculate with an audit. We have a compressor fridge, TV, computer, fluorescent lighting, macerator toilet etc and our amp hour counter records approx 65-70 Ah @ 24v per 24hrs, sometimes more, so at 12v that is 140Ah + which is much nearer a fully equiped boat IMO. Appreciate you have small electric demand but 35 Ah seems very low though if accurate is a testament to green living!

Edited January 5, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[tomsk]

Yes your right he does say that. It seemed to me from what you wrote that you were saying it was inaccurate full stop but I agree once you get below 50% of original bank capacity it loses it's accuracy.

 

 

Yawn! Nice constructive post there.

 

I can't say anything about Mr Sterling but from my dealings with Gibbo on here and with his company l I have always known him to be generous and helpful.

 

 

Agreed re: Mr Gibbo, but his manner is rather terse.

[DHutch]

With due respect I think your estimate is a bit optimistic, do you have an amp hour counter?

 

We have a compressor fridge, TV, computer, fluorescent lighting, macerator toilet etc and our amp hour counter records approx 65-70 Ah @ 24v per 24hrs, sometimes more, so at 12v that is 140Ah + which is much nearer a fully equiped boat IMO.

Well it was as much as anything a sample of how and audit might go and an example of a very basic boat, in comparison to some of the more elaborate systems and usage patterns.

- We really do switch the fridge (which draws around 2amps when running) off before the evening meal and not on again till after breakfast.

- Furthermore we really do use very little electric light when on the boat. Getting up at 8-9 and going to bed within an hour or so of dark.

 

We dont have a tv, macerators, radio is rare, we dont use a computer onboard except special occations, have short showers often even turning the water off mid shower to save water etc. My grandad has low expectations of service provisions and ive largly followed that, boating for the love of boating. We do a 12hour day moving the boat and then go pretty much straight to bed. It a bit like camping.

 

Not everyones cuppa, but we really can last 5days with 4*110Ah*12v batteries, one thetford pp, and an 80gal water tank if we're at a rally or similar.

 

*edited to correct typo (80gal as 880gal)

 

 

Daniel

[nb Innisfree]

Well it was as much as anything a sample of how and audit might go and an example of a very basic boat, in comparison to some of the more elaborate systems and usage patterns.

- We really do switch the fridge (which draws around 2amps when running) off before the evening meal and not on again till after breakfast.

- Furthermore we really do use very little electric light when on the boat. Getting up at 8-9 and going to bed within an hour or so of dark.

 

We dont have a tv, macerators, radio is rare, we dont use a computer onboard except special occations, have short showers often even turning the water off mid shower to save water etc. My grandad has low expectations of service provisions and ive largly followed that, boating for the love of boating. We do a 12hour day moving the boat and then go pretty much straight to bed. It a bit like camping.

 

Not everyones cuppa, but we really can last 5days with 4*110Ah*12v batteries, one thetford pp, and an 880gal water tank if we're at a rally or similar.

 

 

 

Daniel

 

 

Respect