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Wyn2joy

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After reviewing many different boat builders pages and boat tests, I am curious about the actual differences in thinsulate insulation vs. other kinds such as spray foam. Spray foam seems to be the standard deal, and I've not been able to find much on its warts or virtues discussed since it is the industry standard. Thinsulate seems to be in use by only a handful of builders (Reading Marine Co. K & A). The more I read about thinsulate the more I am curious to hear from boaters with both kinds of insulation.

Wyn

Edited by Wyn2joy
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After reviewing many different boat builders pages and boat tests, I am curious about the actual differences in thinsulate insulation vs. other kinds such as spray foam. Spray foam seems to be the standard deal, and I've not been able to find much on its warts or virtues discussed since it is the industry standard. Thinsulate seems to be in use by only a handful of builders (Reading Marine Co. K & A). The more I read about thinsulate the more I am curious to hear from boaters with both kinds of insulation.

Wyn

 

Expensive and dubious claims of being more effective than spray foam. Also hard to fit so I have heard.

 

Spray foam - fit and forget - and been around long enough to prove its worth. Also the material has been used for years to insulate hot water boilers and as far as i'm aware without failure.

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Ive used sprayfoam in buildings for over twenty years its tremendous stuff at doing its intended job. the fact that it bonds to the steel means theres no chance of vapour reaching the steel and the timber noggins for lining out are installed first so has the effect of firming them up too.

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Ive used sprayfoam in buildings for over twenty years its tremendous stuff at doing its intended job. the fact that it bonds to the steel means theres no chance of vapour reaching the steel and the timber noggins for lining out are installed first so has the effect of firming them up too.

 

 

Yes, as long as it does bond correctly.

We had a problem with water coming out from the bottom of the gunnel in one area. When we had a bit of sunshine on that side, we initially thought it was a leak, but after lots of searching and sealing it continued. We finally came to the conclusion that it was condensation behind the sprayfoam, and that the water that had formed found a route to escape from the roof to the area under the gunnel. We had to take the roof panels down to find the source, scraped away the sprayfoam and found areas of rust where water had formed and where the sprayfoam had not bonded correctly. In other areas the sprayfoam came away easily but behind was very clean steel, like new.

We had to re-spray an area of over 20sq metres - not a nice job. My advice for any new builds is to make sure the steel properly prepared and cleaned, that the sprayer applies a flash coat and make sure the steel is at the correct temperature before spraying, otherwise it may not adhere to steel properly.

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Yes, as long as it does bond correctly.

We had a problem with water coming out from the bottom of the gunnel in one area. When we had a bit of sunshine on that side, we initially thought it was a leak, but after lots of searching and sealing it continued. We finally came to the conclusion that it was condensation behind the sprayfoam, and that the water that had formed found a route to escape from the roof to the area under the gunnel. We had to take the roof panels down to find the source, scraped away the sprayfoam and found areas of rust where water had formed and where the sprayfoam had not bonded correctly. In other areas the sprayfoam came away easily but behind was very clean steel, like new.

We had to re-spray an area of over 20sq metres - not a nice job. My advice for any new builds is to make sure the steel properly prepared and cleaned, that the sprayer applies a flash coat and make sure the steel is at the correct temperature before spraying, otherwise it may not adhere to steel properly.

I did start to say the only potential drawback I could see was how well it was applied then wiped it from the post, youve confirmed my worst fear although ive never had it happen on any of the potato stores weve had done and thought i was being overly pessimistic. i do however see no advantage in the thinsulate type of insulation as it seems a right faff and the potential for breaks in contact with the steel to be high. :lol:

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With sprayfoam it's important that if it is applied on steel then that should be painted with a good coat of quality primer, it doesn't adhere as well to bare steel.

 

New one on me that one. I was always told the reverse, the thing it doesn't like is oil or grease on the plate I found.

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I have dug out some U values as a comparison:

 

Bare steel plate U value is 6.0 w/m2/k.

 

1 inch spray foam 0.79 1 inch thinsulate 1.49

 

2 inch spray foam 0.43 2 inch thinsulate 0.98

 

3M claim that weight for weight thinsulate is the better insulator which is probably true, but weight is generally not an issue with steel vessels. So sprayfoam is the better insulator.

 

When sprayfoam hits bare steel, it forms an impervious bond with the steel about 0.5mm thick, the liquid then foams off that.

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New one on me that one. I was always told the reverse, the thing it doesn't like is oil or grease on the plate I found.

 

Found out by a fellow owner fitter outerer, he didn't have time to prime all of his shell before sprayfoam. Later he cut several holes for fender eyes and the foam easily cane off of what seemed clean bare steel discs that were left, stuck like billyo to primed ones, couldn't even prise it off had to scrape it off bit by bit. Also it doesn't adhere very well at all to blacking, ok if foam is 'locked in' to corners etc. Websters recommend priming.

Edited by nb Innisfree
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I have now built two boats using thinsulate and can highly reccomend it. It is more commonly used in clothing, motor and aero industries. It possesses a high insulation factor, high noise reduction properties, is non polluting, does not absorb water, won't burn, can be freely handled, is easy to install and can be recycled.

 

It took me two days on my own to put in the insulation for a 65' semi trad. The adhesive is a water based latex liquid which can be applied direct to bare metal with a pint brush. Just apply the adhesive, which is still tacky after a couple of days, measure the piece you want to stick, cut with a good large pair of scissors, and apply to the steel (white side down). With the weater as it is at the time of writing with all the frost and snow, 25c+ inside and minus 7c outside, with the frost etc not melted outside on the cabin roof. Thats good insulation imo. Sprayfoam, as its name suggests, gets everywhere inside and out side the sprayed area, seems to be quite toxic, needs alot of masking off in the first place and a certain amout of 'cutting back' afterwards and it is not advised to run electric cables over it without them being in conduit, as with polystyrene sheets. The Thinsulate waste left over at the end would fit in a jacket pocket, so economical in that respect. Got mine from Reading Marine and managed to get a bit of a deal from them as its not perhaps the cheapest way to insulate a boat. But you do get what you pay for at the end of the day.

 

I would definately use it again.

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I have dug out some U values as a comparison:

 

Bare steel plate U value is 6.0 w/m2/k.

 

1 inch spray foam 0.79 1 inch thinsulate 1.49

 

2 inch spray foam 0.43 2 inch thinsulate 0.98

 

3M claim that weight for weight thinsulate is the better insulator which is probably true, but weight is generally not an issue with steel vessels. So sprayfoam is the better insulator.

 

When sprayfoam hits bare steel, it forms an impervious bond with the steel about 0.5mm thick, the liquid then foams off that.

 

In this months Canal Boat Andy Wright of Stephen Goldsbrough Boats, claims that "Rockwool" is more effective than other forms of insulation.

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In this months Canal Boat Andy Wright of Stephen Goldsbrough Boats, claims that "Rockwool" is more effective than other forms of insulation.

 

 

Right - that's decided then. On my next boat I shall use rockwool, then thinsulate, then give it a good coat of primer then add a final layer of sprayfoam. Will this work? :lol:

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.... Sprayfoam, as its name suggests, gets everywhere inside and out side the sprayed area, seems to be quite toxic, needs alot of masking off in the first place and a certain amout of 'cutting back' afterwards and it is not advised to run electric cables over it without them being in conduit, as with polystyrene sheets.

 

This is not true. Sprayfoam is not like polystyrene. Poly eats into the PVC of cables I believe, sprayform does not. This was confirmed by the surveyor also.

My first boat was poly and that had cold 'bridges' (where the wood passed over a steel rib without insulation) where condensation would form on cold days on the wood. With better planning, these should have been covered, but that's down to the builder.

My last two have been sprayfoamed, having been primed well. My advice is to fill every single gap and hole that is supposed to be sprayfoamed, leave none, or you may see little rusty water marks on your nice wood finish in Winter. My friend found this out to his cost and passed on this advice to me, which I hope I've taken 'onboard'.

 

ITA

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In this months Canal Boat Andy Wright of Stephen Goldsbrough Boats, claims that "Rockwool" is more effective than other forms of insulation.

 

I'm willing to be corrected but I don't believe that's right - as I understand it among conventional building insulation materials the Celotex type materials insulate significantly better than Rockwool for a given thickness (and they are similar in nature to sprayfoam).

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I thought rock wool could still be saturated, then the weight would drag the insulation down the recess?

 

When people are talking thinsulate is this just used as a generic term for the like of Celotex and Kingspan type products or is there an advantage to using thinsulate over the more common builders type products.

 

Is there a spray can foam void filler that is well matched to celotax, thinsulate, kingsspan products??

 

Paul

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I thought rock wool could still be saturated, then the weight would drag the insulation down the recess?

 

When people are talking thinsulate is this just used as a generic term for the like of Celotex and Kingspan type products or is there an advantage to using thinsulate over the more common builders type products.

 

Thinsulate is a specific product made by 3m, whereas Celotex is a generic product made by whoever. Bear in mind however that Celotex is designed for the building trade, not boats. It is also foil coated on both sides so would be difficult to stick 100% to the steel of a boat and the thickness that it comes in may be too deep to fitt correctly where wanted. It is manufactured from a different type of foam to sprayfoam. If sprayfoam is applied correctly it should fill all the gaps. It is possible to buy a can of 'sprayfoam', from a diy store or builders merchant, which would fill any small gaps. It is also true that sprayfoam will not react with/to electrical wiring or plumbing.

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No definately not the foam is actually moisture curing and a small spray of water on the surface will make it stick and cure quicker.!

Like polyurethane wood glue then. Is it polyurethane based?

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I thought rock wool could still be saturated, then the weight would drag the insulation down the recess?

 

When people are talking thinsulate is this just used as a generic term for the like of Celotex and Kingspan type products or is there an advantage to using thinsulate over the more common builders type products.

 

Is there a spray can foam void filler that is well matched to celotax, thinsulate, kingsspan products??

 

Paul

 

Kingspan and the like is polyurethane foam, the same as found in builders aerosol foam filler. If you use it make sure it is the fire resistant version and I would recommend using a proper applicator gun and buy aerosols that can be used with it, makes the job so much easier and tidier + you can use part of aerosols much easier, just make sure you clean gun and aerosol with gun cleaner which also comes in aerosols.

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I thought rock wool could still be saturated, then the weight would drag the insulation down the recess?

 

When people are talking thinsulate is this just used as a generic term for the like of Celotex and Kingspan type products or is there an advantage to using thinsulate over the more common builders type products.

 

Is there a spray can foam void filler that is well matched to celotax, thinsulate, kingsspan products??

 

Paul

 

The two things are completely different - Celotex, Kingspan etc are solid slabs of a urethane material sold in a wide variety of thicknesses. Thinsulate is a thin, flexible sheet like product (which is why it is used to insulate clothing). Sprayfoam is a polyurethane foam, I believe, which is closest in nature to Celotex etc.

Celotex boards could be used to insulate a boat because they are easy to cut to suitable shapes and installed as a tight fit between the battens to avoid the need for glueing. They can't be compressed though which might be a problem. Small gaps could be filled with the sprayfoam cans from DIY stores.

(I'm not advocating this as the idea method just pointing out how it could be done).

I wouldn't be keen on Rockwool or glass fibre either for insulation because I think they will soak up any water and slump down - and anyway other products are better!

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I'm willing to be corrected but I don't believe that's right - as I understand it among conventional building insulation materials the Celotex type materials insulate significantly better than Rockwool for a given thickness (and they are similar in nature to sprayfoam).

I agree with you, a few years ago at Braunston,Merlin were still fitting narrow boats and he had two he was working on at the same time, one spray one wool. He put an identical electric heater in each boat and recorded the internal temperatures, Guss which was warmer, the spray foamed one

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This is not true. Sprayfoam is not like polystyrene. Poly eats into the PVC of cables I believe, sprayform does not. This was confirmed by the surveyor also.

 

Hmm, this has made me a little concerned. When our boat was built, she was insulated with polystyrene sheets and then all of the electrics were enclosed in plastic conduit. When I installed our solar panels 3 years ago, I fed the cables in through a mushroom vent and then behind the ceiling lining to the electrics cupboard where I installed the charge controller. Is this risky? Obviously it has been fine for 3 years so far, but that's not to say it always will be.

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Hmm, this has made me a little concerned. When our boat was built, she was insulated with polystyrene sheets and then all of the electrics were enclosed in plastic conduit. When I installed our solar panels 3 years ago, I fed the cables in through a mushroom vent and then behind the ceiling lining to the electrics cupboard where I installed the charge controller. Is this risky? Obviously it has been fine for 3 years so far, but that's not to say it always will be.

 

As long as you can check it will be fine, there is lots of information on the web, basically you are looking for the polystyrene melting 'channels' behind the cable.

 

If you're worried get some flexible conduit and split it along it's length and enclose the cables.

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