Am I sinking?

[mark_hookway]

I have recently bought a 57' narrowboat built in 2001 and am new to this life, hence the forum area. Today I lifted some of the floor boards up with the aim to move some ballist to straighten us up. The cabin is completely sealed in, so as the surveyors report suggested I tried to make an inspection hatch in the floor as well. Here I came across water, realising this was not a good sign I searched online to see how urgent it is.

 

I think I have managed to understand a few things, but was hoping someone may be able to clarify a few things for me who may have had the same problem before. Firstly I understand I am not going to sink overnight, but understand it should be dry in the cabin bilge. I have not got a pump for it and it is seperate to the engine room bilge. I understand it could be a leak of some kind, but after soaking a couple of buckets worth more kept coming so I discounted this, it doesnt keep coming and coming like a flood, but if i mop it up the same will come back and then stay at a consistent level. The water is at the back of the cabin and it is impossible to know if it is all over unless i Take everything out of the boat and lift up all the flooring (not a simple job!). The starboard side is dry and it is just the port side, this is the side which is deeper in the water and i aimed to remove some ballast from.

 

A few questions:

 

1. Is it normal to have a bit of water in the bilge and if it doesnt get any worse is it doing any harm?

2. Should I get an expert to look at this straight away?

3. Should I dismantle the boat to see if there is anymore water in the cabin bilge?

4. Should my surveyor have noticed this?

5. Is it likely to be a winter problem and Ok in the summer?

6. Is the problem likely to be related to my ballast problem and one side being deeper in the water than the other?

 

Sorry to rabble on, but I appreciate any helpful comments about this and I hope once it is sorted I can help someone similar.

 

Thank you Mark

[David Schweizer]

The most likely cause is a leak in the domestic water system, the most likely culprit is the water pump, especially if it is on the same side as the water. Even a small dripping leak will deposit a lot of water into your bilges (voice of experience) If it is not the pump check the calorifier (they can spring a leak unanounced) then check all the domestic water connections for leaks, the most difficult ones will be any that are under the floor. If you cannot find any leaks, you may need to call in someone with more expertise.

 

I would continue to bale out the water until there is none left, do not be put off by more water arriving athe the back of the boat, this is not unusual as the water has to flow through the ballast and the angle of flow is not very steep. It took about five days of regular baling to remove all the water from the bilges in our boat.

Edited January 3, 2010 by David Schweizer

[Keeping Up]

I wouldn't panic just yet. It's much more likely to be fresh water, or possibly rainwater. You shouldn't need an expert, you should be able to track it down yourslf.

 

The bilge should be completely dry, but any water that gets in that area will run to the stern because the boat slopes that way. If for example you have a leak from you water tank at the front, or the associated pipework or pump, it will run all the way under the floorboards to the stern. By thetime there is significant water there, it will be fairly wet down much of the boat, and when you mop up at the stern the water from the rest of the boat will slowly make its way past the floor bearers, ballast, etc, and fill up the stern area again.

 

A good way to empty it is to borrow a Vax or similar.

 

You will have to find where it is coming from. If it is not obvious, you may have to cut one or more additional inspection areas further along the boat. A surveyor may well not have noticed it, if there was no access to the bilge before, and I don't expect it has anythng to do with the boat leaning slightly (though it may be the cause of that lean)

[magpie patrick]

The only thing I would add is that the list is the cause of the water collecting that side, not the other way round, water will find any slight (imperceptible to you) list and make for that side, it heads for the lowest point, rather than creating it.

 

try and measure what you get out, it is probably pints rather than gallons, and that may indicate a weeping joint rather than a leaking one

[RLWP]

The water will only be at the back (boats are trimmed to slope front to back) and maybe only in one corner. How deep is it?

 

Richard

[n.b.Goldie]

I have recently bought a 57' narrowboat built in 2001 and am new to this life, hence the forum area. Today I lifted some of the floor boards up with the aim to move some ballist to straighten us up. The cabin is completely sealed in, so as the surveyors report suggested I tried to make an inspection hatch in the floor as well. Here I came across water, realising this was not a good sign I searched online to see how urgent it is.

 

I think I have managed to understand a few things, but was hoping someone may be able to clarify a few things for me who may have had the same problem before. Firstly I understand I am not going to sink overnight, but understand it should be dry in the cabin bilge. I have not got a pump for it and it is seperate to the engine room bilge. I understand it could be a leak of some kind, but after soaking a couple of buckets worth more kept coming so I discounted this, it doesnt keep coming and coming like a flood, but if i mop it up the same will come back and then stay at a consistent level. The water is at the back of the cabin and it is impossible to know if it is all over unless i Take everything out of the boat and lift up all the flooring (not a simple job!). The starboard side is dry and it is just the port side, this is the side which is deeper in the water and i aimed to remove some ballast from.

 

A few questions:

 

1. Is it normal to have a bit of water in the bilge and if it doesnt get any worse is it doing any harm?

2. Should I get an expert to look at this straight away?

3. Should I dismantle the boat to see if there is anymore water in the cabin bilge?

4. Should my surveyor have noticed this?

5. Is it likely to be a winter problem and Ok in the summer?

6. Is the problem likely to be related to my ballast problem and one side being deeper in the water than the other?

 

Sorry to rabble on, but I appreciate any helpful comments about this and I hope once it is sorted I can help someone similar.

 

Thank you Mark

If you are sinking the water will come in continuously and I would have thought you would have noticed it before now!

 

Assuming you are not sinking the water is most likely to be condensation collecting in the bilge.

 

I lived on my previous boat and in the winter I would remove somewhere in the region of a gallon of water a week from the cabin bilge. As the temperatures rose toward spring and summer the bilge would dry out only to become wet again toward end of autumn.

 

You should make your inspection hatch at the lowest point of the bilge, usually at the bulkhead between cabin and engine room, make it big enough to be easily able to remove any water.

 

I do not understand why many boat builders do not install a hatch, perhaps they think condensation is a myth!

 

It is also worth checking other things to be on the safe side:

 

If the leak is from your freshwater system after the pump, you would notice the pump kick in every now and then.

 

If it is the freshwater system before the pump (i.e. pipe and connections between tank and pump), it might be dripping into the bilge, worth a check.

 

It could be the pump leaking when activated as I found out one year when my bilge did not dry in the summer. (Shurflo pump)

 

Have a good look round, find out where your pump is, where your pipes go, check any connections for leaks GET TO KNOW YOUR BOAT.

 

All the best

Ditchdabbler

[wrigglefingers]

I have recently bought a 57' narrowboat built in 2001 and am new to this life, hence the forum area. Today I lifted some of the floor boards up with the aim to move some ballist to straighten us up. The cabin is completely sealed in, so as the surveyors report suggested I tried to make an inspection hatch in the floor as well. Here I came across water, realising this was not a good sign I searched online to see how urgent it is.

 

I think I have managed to understand a few things, but was hoping someone may be able to clarify a few things for me who may have had the same problem before. Firstly I understand I am not going to sink overnight, but understand it should be dry in the cabin bilge. I have not got a pump for it and it is seperate to the engine room bilge. I understand it could be a leak of some kind, but after soaking a couple of buckets worth more kept coming so I discounted this, it doesnt keep coming and coming like a flood, but if i mop it up the same will come back and then stay at a consistent level. The water is at the back of the cabin and it is impossible to know if it is all over unless i Take everything out of the boat and lift up all the flooring (not a simple job!). The starboard side is dry and it is just the port side, this is the side which is deeper in the water and i aimed to remove some ballast from.

 

A few questions:

 

1. Is it normal to have a bit of water in the bilge and if it doesnt get any worse is it doing any harm?

Not immediately, but it's a good idea to resolve the problem as soon as possible

 

2. Should I get an expert to look at this straight away?

No, don't panic, it's a relatively common problem and can be caused by a number of issues. these include, plumbing faults, my particular favourite being the leaking water pump, but could also include a leaking shower discharge pump, faulty plumbing joints, pipes split due to freezing temperatures, leaking water tank (less likely), leaking heating system, leaking windows or sink drains, condensation, rain ingress. There's probably more but that's all I can think of at the moment. you'll keep costs down if you can find the leak, although that may require some scrambling about with a torch in dark places. Checking the floor for damp patches is obvious but often overlooked!

 

3. Should I dismantle the boat to see if there is anymore water in the cabin bilge?

You need to get to the lowest part of the boat and lift the floor if you haven't already done so, the reason why water keeps appearing is because the water will drain down the boat and often does quite slowly to collect at the lowest point - simple physics really! It may have to make it's way past some obstructions so it will take a while. I once spent an entire evening emptying a bilge only to have to do the same again in the morning and following evening even though I'd cured the leak.

 

4. Should my surveyor have noticed this?

Surveyors will not comment on something they cannot access, although I would expect a comment to be made (which has happened).

 

5. Is it likely to be a winter problem and Ok in the summer?

If it's caused by condensation, which can be the cause of a surprisingly large amount of water, then it will be far less in summer than winter. If you are aboard permanently in winter and superheating the boat I'd expect a degree of condensation. You can improve this by ensuring a degree of ventilation - ie open some windows and put another jumper on!

 

6. Is the problem likely to be related to my ballast problem and one side being deeper in the water than the other?

Only to the extent that you are seeing water one side and not the other!

 

Sorry to rabble on, but I appreciate any helpful comments about this and I hope once it is sorted I can help someone similar.

 

Thank you Mark

 

 

Hope that helps Mark, it's very disconcerting to find this, especially on a cold winter's night, but you're unlikely to sink and it is fixable. I was advised to invest in a wet and dry vacuum years ago, which true to form I still haven't managed, needless to say. Last time I found a bilge full of water was the night before my boat was surveyed! Seven hours bailing followed by an hour re-fitting a water pump, four hours sleep and a swift mop up. vactanned and cured with a hairdryer in the morning. Using the water pump was banned and the surveyor didn't even ask to see the bilge until I triumphantly pulled up the inspection hole. You could still feel the warmth coming up from the bilge from the enthusiastic overheating. He wasn't in the least bothered, simply remarking how well the boat had been maintained!

 

Good luck, Jill

[RLWP]

Mark has answers to his question here too: Forum link

 

Richard

[sueb]

Nappies are good for getting the last bit out.

Sue

[John Orentas]

Mark.

It is one of those sods law things, if access to the underfloor is difficult it probably means that the previous owner rarely, if ever checked it.. Water accumulating below the floor is invariably a problem of leaking plumbing, equally don't be too amazed if a plumbing fault can't be found, it may have been rectified months or years ago.. Less likely you may have a leaking window frame somewhere, but don't expect a leak to have any relationship to where the water is lying now..

 

There are a few reliable methods of getting the water out but first you must create an inspection hatch of a reasonable size as close as possible to the rearmost bulkhead, remove any ballast that may be directly below your new hatch.. I had a 12 volt wet or dry vacuum cleaner which worked very well but remember water will carry on trickling down to the rear for hours or days, there are lots of nooks, crannies and even porous materials down there..

 

To get the space permanently dry will take time, probably going on into the summer months, try to improve the ventilation such that there will be a through-put of air, blowing warm air through the space if it can be managed will greatly speed up the process.

[casper ghost]

What sort of front deck do you have? If it's a well deck rain water could be getting in that way. Every one else has said most other things..

[nb Innisfree]

If the bilge air is relatively warm you will get condensation on the baseplate and even more on any uninsulated vertical surfaces in the winter. That's why bilge dries out in winter if boat is cold and unoccupied. The only way to stop it is to either insulate bottom plate etc or insulate under floor and/or ventilate bilge with cool air to reduce temp differential.

Edited January 3, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[haggis]

Nappies are good for getting the last bit out.

Sue

Aren't they marvellous? It is amazing just how much water they can absorb. Wasted on babies, I reckon :-)

 

Haggis

[mark_hookway]

The most likely cause is a leak in the domestic water system, the most likely culprit is the water pump, especially if it is on the same side as the water. Even a small dripping leak will deposit a lot of water into your bilges (voice of experience) If it is not the pump check the calorifier (they can spring a leak unanounced) then check all the domestic water connections for leaks, the most difficult ones will be any that are under the floor. If you cannot find any leaks, you may need to call in someone with more expertise.

 

I would continue to bale out the water until there is none left, do not be put off by more water arriving athe the back of the boat, this is not unusual as the water has to flow through the ballast and the angle of flow is not very steep. It took about five days of regular baling to remove all the water from the bilges in our boat.

 

 

Thank you for your response. I believe from what I have read it is somethig to do with the domestic water supply. The water pump does occasionaly kick in when not in use, which I assumed was topping up the pipes after movement in the boat. I am not quite sure however of the difference between the water pump and calorfier and also once I have accessed these if it is easy enough to determine if that is the problem, any advice will be greatly appreciated?

 

Thank you

 

Mark

 

The water will only be at the back (boats are trimmed to slope front to back) and maybe only in one corner. How deep is it?

 

Richard

 

That's right, the water seems to be just in one corner. It is not very deep - approx 10mm, which it stays at despite sponging out a couple of buckets.

 

Thanks

 

Mark

 

If you are sinking the water will come in continuously and I would have thought you would have noticed it before now!

 

Assuming you are not sinking the water is most likely to be condensation collecting in the bilge.

 

I lived on my previous boat and in the winter I would remove somewhere in the region of a gallon of water a week from the cabin bilge. As the temperatures rose toward spring and summer the bilge would dry out only to become wet again toward end of autumn.

 

You should make your inspection hatch at the lowest point of the bilge, usually at the bulkhead between cabin and engine room, make it big enough to be easily able to remove any water.

 

I do not understand why many boat builders do not install a hatch, perhaps they think condensation is a myth!

 

It is also worth checking other things to be on the safe side:

 

If the leak is from your freshwater system after the pump, you would notice the pump kick in every now and then.

 

If it is the freshwater system before the pump (i.e. pipe and connections between tank and pump), it might be dripping into the bilge, worth a check.

 

It could be the pump leaking when activated as I found out one year when my bilge did not dry in the summer. (Shurflo pump)

 

Have a good look round, find out where your pump is, where your pipes go, check any connections for leaks GET TO KNOW YOUR BOAT.

 

All the best

Ditchdabbler

 

 

Thanks, I did wander if it was condensation, but there seems to be too much considering it is not really a problem in the boat. I currently have the heating on for about 12 hours a day so I would guess it should be pretty dry. The water pump does kick in an out occasionaly and always has. I dismissed this thinking it was supposed to do it, but it will be the next thing I check. I guess finding the pump and using it will show if it leaks or not?

 

Thank you, Mark

Edited January 3, 2010 by mark_hookway

[alan_fincher]

It should be a very rare occurrence for your fresh water pump to kick in for short durations, if you are not actively using water.

 

It can happen once, briefly, sometimes, if you have managed to finish drawing water with the pressure reduced to only just above the cut-in pressure for the pump, but it should then only make one correcting re-pressurisation, and then not pump at all until you next draw off water.

 

If it continues to run for short periods, multiple times, there is almost certainly a problem that needs investigating......

 

A water pump looks like this....

 

 

A calorifier looks like this....

 

 

You may also have an Accumulator, to help the pump run more smoothly, with it cutting in and out less, and achieving a more constant flow....

 

These look like the blue thing shown here, often being very close to the water pump, as shown....

 

Edited January 3, 2010 by alan_fincher

[RLWP]

That's right, the water seems to be just in one corner. It is not very deep - approx 10mm, which it stays at despite sponging out a couple of buckets.

 

Thanks

 

Mark

 

It takes ages for the water to run through the hull to the back because of the strengthening beams and ballast. So if you take out a couple of buckets then more water runs back into that space.

 

Is the water soapy or clear? I'm trying to see if we can work out where it is coming from.

 

You could also try to find the shut off valve on the water tank. See if there is an access panel under your front steps.

 

Richard

 

When our water tank leaked the water was clear but rusty from the crap under the floor, so it smelled metallic. We had over 2" of it, so don't panic yet! It took more than one go to pump that out because of the time it took to run through the ballast.

 

Good posting Alan, that should make it easier for Mark to work out what's what.

Edited January 3, 2010 by RLWP

[mark_hookway]

Hope that helps Mark, it's very disconcerting to find this, especially on a cold winter's night, but you're unlikely to sink and it is fixable. I was advised to invest in a wet and dry vacuum years ago, which true to form I still haven't managed, needless to say. Last time I found a bilge full of water was the night before my boat was surveyed! Seven hours bailing followed by an hour re-fitting a water pump, four hours sleep and a swift mop up. vactanned and cured with a hairdryer in the morning. Using the water pump was banned and the surveyor didn't even ask to see the bilge until I triumphantly pulled up the inspection hole. You could still feel the warmth coming up from the bilge from the enthusiastic overheating. He wasn't in the least bothered, simply remarking how well the boat had been maintained!

 

Good luck, Jill

 

 

Thank you Jill, I will definately check the water pump as it does kick in and out from time to time when not in use. It has always done this and considered it 'normal' but reading other posts means it is worth a check. You mentioned that a suprising amount of condensation can occur in the winter, which could also be part of the problem I live on the boat 12 months a year and at the moment the heating is on for approx 12 hours a day, it is dry in the boat and condensation not a problem, is that becasue it could be below?

 

Thanks again, Mark

[alan_fincher]

Good posting Alan, that should make it easier for Mark to work out what's what.

Well he did say "I am not quite sure however of the difference between the water pump and calorfier"!

[RLWP]

Well he did say "I am not quite sure however of the difference between the water pump and calorfier"!

 

Yes, and I meant what I posted. What's that thing about a picture being worth a thousand words?

 

Richard

[Lady Muck]

To the OP: we discovered our water pump was leaking (it used to kick in mysteriously). Having removed it, we discovered it had a hole in the diaphragm. We fitted a new one (quite easy to do) and have kept the old one for repair and spare.

We cut an inspection hole in the back cabin (at about the lowest point). Using a hand pump we pumped out a whopping 16 buckets of water! Which told us the leak had been going on for some time as the pump was only leaking in a drip drip drip manner.

Upon reading this forum (I think it might've been Wrigglefingers who had to do this) we read that the best way to get the bilge totally dry was to create a draught, to do this you fix /with screws an old computer fan (they are 12v), over the hole so it blows outwards, drawing the damp air out of the bilge. We wired this fan up and plugged it in to our roll up solar panel and stuck that on the roof to run the fan. Ran the fan for about ten days, to get the bilge bone dry.

 

Hope this helps you. I have learnt that boating is all about the attempt to keep the water on the correct side of your hull.

 

It seems to me to be never ending. I have just spent the entire day regrouting and sealing the tiles around my bathtub as we discovered that water was getting through gaps in the old grout and onto the floor under the bath!

Edited January 3, 2010 by Lady Muck

[RLWP]

<snip> Ran the fan for about ten days, to get the bilge bone dry.

 

Hope this helps you. I have learnt that boating is all about the attempt to keep the water on the correct side of your hull.

 

It seems to me to be never ending. I have just spent the entire day regrouting and sealing the tiels around my bathtub as we discovered that water was getting through gaps in the old grout and onto the floor under the bath!

 

If it helps, we emptied all but 2mm of water out of our hull and put the cover back. When I checked it again later in the year our bilge was also bone dry and has continued to be so.

 

Richard

 

Well, until the next leak that is...

[Lady Muck]

I've just merged the two topics

 

LM

[RLWP]

I've just merged the two topics

 

LM

Good work!

 

Richard

[mark_hookway]

It should be a very rare occurrence for your fresh water pump to kick in for short durations, if you are not actively using water.

 

It can happen once, briefly, sometimes, if you have managed to finish drawing water with the pressure reduced to only just above the cut-in pressure for the pump, but it should then only make one correcting re-pressurisation, and then not pump at all until you next draw off water.

 

If it continues to run for short periods, multiple times, there is almost certainly a problem that needs investigating......

 

A water pump looks like this....

 

 

A calorifier looks like this....

 

 

You may also have an Accumulator, to help the pump run more smoothly, with it cutting in and out less, and achieving a more constant flow....

 

These look like the blue thing shown here, often being very close to the water pump, as shown....

 

 

Thanks - I think the water pump kicking in could just be for re-pressurisation. The water pressure is always there whenever I put thre taps on so I guess it must need to adjust itself. It is only occasionaly it does this. Thanks for the pictures - next job is finding them, I remember my surveyor had difficulty, but he did note it in the report, which will help.

 

 

It takes ages for the water to run through the hull to the back because of the strengthening beams and ballast. So if you take out a couple of buckets then more water runs back into that space.

 

Is the water soapy or clear? I'm trying to see if we can work out where it is coming from.

 

You could also try to find the shut off valve on the water tank. See if there is an access panel under your front steps.

 

Richard

 

When our water tank leaked the water was clear but rusty from the crap under the floor, so it smelled metallic. We had over 2" of it, so don't panic yet! It took more than one go to pump that out because of the time it took to run through the ballast.

 

Good posting Alan, that should make it easier for Mark to work out what's what.

 

The water is clear i guess. When I take it out through a sponge into the bucket it is more of a dirty/rusty colour, like yours, it certainly isnt soapy. When it is lying in the bilge it looks clear, but it is difficult to see as the bilge is painted black.

[DHutch]

The water pump does occasionaly kick in when not in use, which I assumed was topping up the pipes after movement in the boat.

Thats fairly conclusive of a leak in my book.

- Theres a chance that the leak through the non return valves within the pump back into the watertank and pumps just buzzing it back into the pressurised system. However its atlease at likely that the leak is somewhere down steam of the pump or the pump body itself. In which case you well next see it in the bilge.

 

If you have never seen the inside of a unfitted out hull (and theres no reason you should) then they have steel members about ever 18inches or so, a little like the joints/beams the hold up the floorboards on a house which keep the base stiff. These are welded to the hull and sides but have the corner knocked off at each end to allow water to pass between sections (these are called lumber holes) and this is probably the reason why you can seemly empty the bilge for it then to refill. You have actually only emptied the nearest more rearwards section, and this is then refilled as the water moves down the boat.

You just need to be patient and bail it out fairly empty, wait for it to refill, and repeat till it stops refilling, they you can get the last bit out.

 

 

Daniel