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Fuel Feed Problems - advice requested


TeeELL

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Hi there,

I am in need of some advice in order to resolve an issue with fuel feed to my Barrus Shire 45.

Situation: We have been out cruising for 6 weeks now, early on in the cruise I found that when the fuel tank level reach approximately 1/3rd the engine would become difficult to start and would/could cut out unexpectedly (usually at tickover – but not always). As a consequence I have been keeping the fuel level above half tank (as far as possible). However, when leaving Llangollen a couple of days ago the engine displayed the same symptoms but with the tank level only just below half. I’m out for another 2 weeks yet so who knows what fuel state will invoke this problem!!

Both fuel filters are Crosland 522 changed at 1250hrs (engine now at 1460hrs), ‘Fuel Set’ used routinely – nevertheless I will consider any suggestions (I have spare fuel filters on board). I await your pearls of advice sure in the knowledge that one/some of you will give me the stear I need to resolve this issue. All I ask is that you maintain the awareness that I’m out cruising so don’t have access to spare fuel containers etc!!

 

Many thanks in anticipation

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Any chance your fuel lift pump is knackered, (or part knackered), so you are at least partly relying on gravity to get the fuel in, rather than pumping it.

 

How does the level in your tank at which it works compare to (say) the highest point in your fuel system after that ?

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Check tank vent isn't blocked , could be getting a partial vacuum.

 

Is the boat new, or did it used to be ok before? bit of a long shot but fuel feed and return could have been connected wrong way round by mistake mistake?

 

Or could be partial blockage in feed pipe resulting in insufficient lift from lower fuel level

Edited by nb Innisfree
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Any chance your fuel lift pump is knackered, (or part knackered), so you are at least partly relying on gravity to get the fuel in, rather than pumping it.

 

How does the level in your tank at which it works compare to (say) the highest point in your fuel system after that ?

 

Alan, I think that may be the problem too, do you know a simple test that would show if this is true?

 

Richard

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Any chance your fuel lift pump is knackered, (or part knackered), so you are at least partly relying on gravity to get the fuel in, rather than pumping it.

 

How does the level in your tank at which it works compare to (say) the highest point in your fuel system after that ?

In the same vein, a small leak on the suction side of the fuel lift pump or pipework leading to it, allowing it to pull air in when the fuel level is low and the pressure in the pipe less than atmospheric.

 

MP.

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Smashing!! The replies are in the vein of my limited thoughts and advice that RLWP has given me in my Holiday Cruising thread.

 

Water - The take-off for the fuel is low in the tank (understandably) but any possible water ingress would cause the problem to occur whatever the fuel level surely? As soon as the fuel tank is replenished and after the first difficult start, the engine subsequently starts instantly whether hot or cold (and I really do mean instantly).

 

Fuel Filters - if these where blocked/partially blocked I would expect the engine to be difficult to start, would I not?

 

Partly blocked pipe - I'll have to drain the tank back at Longwood to investigate this.

 

Lift pump - this is a possibility although the engine was serviced a couple of weeks ago and I did ask for the pumps to be checked. Is there a DIY method of checking that all is well?

 

Thank you all for your advice and suggestions - I am in a difficult position, cruising and now becoming time critical for return. I fear I will have to rely on keeping my tank topped up and fingers crossed unless a DIY option can be identified. I had thought about fitting another pump between tank and first filter but whilst that might effect a cure it wouldn't address the root cause.

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Alan, I think that may be the problem too, do you know a simple test that would show if this is true?

 

Lift pump - this is a possibility although the engine was serviced a couple of weeks ago and I did ask for the pumps to be checked. Is there a DIY method of checking that all is well?

I don't know your engine, but if it were my BMC, I think I would wait until I had the problem, then disconnect the fuel line on the outlet side of the lift pump.

 

I would first work the pump by hand, to see fuel was being delivered.

 

Then probably crank it on the starter motor. It would be possible on the BMC, for instance, for it to "hand pump" OK, but necessarily be driven correctly from the engine, (if the arm that runs on a cam got damaged, for instance).

 

But I'm guessing you may have something very different on the Shire, possibly designed to be self-priming ? Advice on how to do it with one of those probably needs to be from someone familiar with the engine.

 

The suggestion that you may be sucking in air through a small leak that is worsening also sounds a good one - have you tried re-tightening every joint on the "suction" side, right from fuel tank to lift pump ?

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I don't know your engine, but if it were my BMC, I think I would wait until I had the problem, then disconnect the fuel line on the outlet side of the lift pump.

 

I would first work the pump by hand, to see fuel was being delivered.

 

Then probably crank it on the starter motor. It would be possible on the BMC, for instance, for it to "hand pump" OK, but necessarily be driven correctly from the engine, (if the arm that runs on a cam got damaged, for instance).

 

But I'm guessing you may have something very different on the Shire, possibly designed to be self-priming ? Advice on how to do it with one of those probably needs to be from someone familiar with the engine.

 

The suggestion that you may be sucking in air through a small leak that is worsening also sounds a good one - have you tried re-tightening every joint on the "suction" side, right from fuel tank to lift pump ?

I agree with the theory, but it would be easier to loosen the fuel supply pipe on the fuel filter head, and priime the lift pump mechanicaly with the small lever fitted to the pump. If fuel squirts out of the loosened pipe connection, the pump is OK, if it either just dribbles or nothing much comes out, the pump is probably faulty.

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I agree with the theory, but it would be easier to loosen the fuel supply pipe on the fuel filter head, and priime the lift pump mechanicaly with the small lever fitted to the pump. If fuel squirts out of the loosened pipe connection, the pump is OK, if it either just dribbles or nothing much comes out, the pump is probably faulty.

Agree that loosening rather than completely disconnecting pipe is fine to see if fuel is spurting.

 

However working by the external lever wouldn't prove whether any damage had occurred to the internal lever that drives the pump off the camshaft.

 

Even if I had proved that "hand pumping" worked, I'd still want to see that the engine was driving the pump too.

 

May be completely irrelevant for the Shire though - I have no knowledge how their lift pump works or is driven, I've already admitted!

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Hi there,

I am in need of some advice in order to resolve an issue with fuel feed to my Barrus Shire 45.

 

Are you sure that the symptoms point to fuel shortage? I ask this because I had a similar problem with our butty which has a BMC 1800 driving a hydraulic motor in the ellum. The engine would start, but stutter and fail shortly afterwards.

I checked the following:

Changed the fuel filter – it was pretty gunged up

Cleaned out and checked the fuel pump

Checked and cleaned the air intake

Bled the system all through

Got rid of about 2 inches of water from the bottom of the fuel tank

Checked the armoured fuel lines in case the rubber inner hose had collapsed blocking the pipe

Dismantled and cleaned out all the fuel pipes to and from the injector pump

Checked that the fuel returned to the tank via the spill rail

Cracked open the injectors in turn when running to see that fuel was being delivered to all the cylinders

Checked the timing and the rocker clearances and observed that all the valves appeared to be opening and closing correctly

 

At this point I gave up and called an engineer – the first time I’ve had to do this over 25 years’ boating! He did exactly what I had done but thought the injector pump might be faulty and persuaded me to buy a new one. Same result.

 

When I got back to base I called in our local engineer who has an excellent reputation and watched him go through the procedure outlined above for the third time. Scratching of head and pause for thought.

 

He then disconnected the hydraulic drive and fired up the engine again. This time it ran, albeit a bit lumpily. Clearly something was preventing the engine developing full power and as soon as there was a load from the hydraulic pump, the engine couldn’t cope and stalled. (I'd previously checked that there was nothing round the blade.)

 

He then took off the cylinder head and the problem was immediately apparent. A blown cylinder head gasket in the narrow gap between cylinders one and two meant that cylinder two was exhausting into cylinder one. Eureka. :lol:

 

All this is probably completely unhelpful to the OP, but I mention it to demonstrate that faults are not always what they appear and once the idea that it was a fuel problem was fixed in my brain, it was difficult to dislodge.

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Hi there,

I am in need of some advice in order to resolve an issue with fuel feed to my Barrus Shire 45.

 

I have a Barrus Shire which has shown something of the same characteristic. I did all the usual checks, and found that no matter how much hand pumping I did, I couldn't get fuel through. So I sought advise, and learned that the fuel outlet from the tank (in my case a Liverpool Boats) is a dip tube arrangement - ie has an upside-down U-bend - to prevent the tank draining in the event of the fuel pipe rupturing. This would explain why the fuel outlet is about 15cm from the bottom of the tank (equivalent to 50% of its capacity) while the fuel pick-up point inside the tank is probably only 5cm from the bottom. In hindsight this arrangement must be prone to an airlock in the U-bend, especially if the fuel level is below the outlet (ie between 5 and 15cm from the bottom). The fix for me was effected by an experienced marine engineer; he filled the tank and then went through a lengthy process of bleeding air from the fuel system - mostly with the engine running to ensure there was good suction in the fuel line. So if you have a similar arrangement, then you might have a residual vapour lock in the dip tube - as the tank drains the pressue of the vapour would fall, it would expand and eventually turn from a partial vapour lock to a complete vapour lock!

 

Mike_N

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A further possibility, which I experienced on my 10 year old boat, is corrosion on the lift pipe inside the tank. The steel pipe had corroded right through at a point about 1/4 tank, so when my tank was down to 1/4 it was like running out of fuel. After a while this became higher and higher, until I only had about half a usable tank.

 

Diagnosis of this problem is simple - allow the tank to drain down to the point where you get the problem. Drain off a further 10 litres or so. Disconnect the fuel pipe from the tank to filter and blow air back down the pipe. If you can hear the air bubbling back up through the fuel then this is not your problem. If you hear no bubbles and no resistance to blowing, you have a whole in your pipe above the fuel level.

 

Solution: with a low tank fuel level, cut a 1 inch hole in your tank near the top. Fabricate a plate of sufficient size to cover the hole, with provision for bolting in place. In the centre of the plate weld a hose union. Attach a suitable pipe on the inside of the plate - I used 5/16 copper fuel pipe - which will reach to about an inch off the bottom of the tank. Bolt the plate in place, sealing with RTV sealant. Job done!

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... an upside-down U-bend - to prevent the tank draining in the event of the fuel pipe rupturing ...

One of the more bizarre requirements of the original Boat Safety scheme, which required that the fuel MUST exit through the top of the tank although it was permitted to have an upside-down tube that was internal. It resulted in many previously-satisfactory tanks being modified so that the pipe emerged above deck next to the steerer's feet, where they soon got damaged by being kicked. It doesn't achieve anything anyway; if the fuel pipe ruptures, the whole contents of the tank would be siphoned out just as quickly as if the pipe emerged from the bottom!

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One of the more bizarre requirements of the original Boat Safety scheme, which required that the fuel MUST exit through the top of the tank although it was permitted to have an upside-down tube that was internal. It resulted in many previously-satisfactory tanks being modified so that the pipe emerged above deck next to the steerer's feet, where they soon got damaged by being kicked. It doesn't achieve anything anyway; if the fuel pipe ruptures, the whole contents of the tank would be siphoned out just as quickly as if the pipe emerged from the bottom!

 

There's still something in the BSS about it now - although I can't remember the exact detail...

 

Edited: Section 2.8.2/R - Applies to petrol fuel tanks on systems with lift pumps.

 

But... There is a best practice note saying the same is recommended for diesel systems too.

 

PC

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One of the more bizarre requirements of the original Boat Safety scheme, which required that the fuel MUST exit through the top of the tank although it was permitted to have an upside-down tube that was internal. It resulted in many previously-satisfactory tanks being modified so that the pipe emerged above deck next to the steerer's feet, where they soon got damaged by being kicked. It doesn't achieve anything anyway; if the fuel pipe ruptures, the whole contents of the tank would be siphoned out just as quickly as if the pipe emerged from the bottom!

Only if the damage occurred below the level of the tank. I was told best practice is to run all pipes as high as possible until you had to drop down to the engine. IMO at the end of the day the most likely bit to fail is a joint or the flexi bit down by the engine.

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In the same vein, a small leak on the suction side of the fuel lift pump or pipework leading to it, allowing it to pull air in when the fuel level is low and the pressure in the pipe less than atmospheric.

 

MP.

 

 

I agree with MP if this problem started after the fuel filter was changed, could you have introduced a small air leak? It may be so small that it would not allow fuel to drip out but as your tank level drops and the pump works harder it could draw air into the fuel system.

 

I once changed the filter on my Barrus and omitted to replace one of the two rubber sealing rings. It took me ages to prime the system afterwards and the engine ran rough. It was at this point I noticed the ring stuck on the bottom of the old filter and a spare one in the new filter box. :lol:

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Spoke to the engineer today - pumps OK. My feeling is that the fiters might be at issue so Saturday may be a check/change filter day. Rather limited by what I can do 'away from base'. There were some minor joint leaks resolved by the engineer, the filter seal 'thing' is interesting as ther is evidence of fuel (not much) on the flat plates of the swim.

Thanks for the suggestions.

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Spoke to the engineer today - pumps OK. My feeling is that the fiters might be at issue so Saturday may be a check/change filter day. Rather limited by what I can do 'away from base'. There were some minor joint leaks resolved by the engineer, the filter seal 'thing' is interesting as ther is evidence of fuel (not much) on the flat plates of the swim.

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

Please let us know how you get on, I for one am intrigued by this and would love to hear the solution

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It sounds like it could be sucking air in from somewhere this in conjunction with the fuel level issue might indicate a problem inside the tank with the lift pipe, a pin hole in the pipe at a welded support tab midway would only suck air after the level falls below it.

Hi, My name is Brian. I too have a Liverpool Boat (7 year old) with Barrus Shire (1952) engine. And a similar problem. The Engine stops for no apparent good reason ! The problem has ruined a 2 month cruise. RCR Engineer reckoned fuel blockage in tank..... so had a hole cut in top of tank at Streethay Wharf, all fuel pumped out, tank steam-cleaned, dried, fuel filtered back (very little dirt in it, no water) and put in on test..and engine stopped again after several hours. Fuel filter assembly & lift pump subsequently replaced, fuel lines checked and some incorrectly fitted olives replace with "stepped" variety etc etc......and engine stopped again on test. Barrus suggested that an inline 12v fuel pump may solve the problem. They supplied it, and Streethay wharf fitted it...and the engine stopped after 12 hours on test. Fuel flowing at least as far as fuel filter when disconnected. It has now cost £1,400.00 and apparently no nearer to solving the problem. I'm not a very practical person so depend on others who are. I've been told to to look at Stop Solonoid next ! Any suggestions may help us both ?

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Hi there,

I am in need of some advice in order to resolve an issue with fuel feed to my Barrus Shire 45.

Situation: We have been out cruising for 6 weeks now, early on in the cruise I found that when the fuel tank level reach approximately 1/3rd the engine would become difficult to start and would/could cut out unexpectedly (usually at tickover – but not always). As a consequence I have been keeping the fuel level above half tank (as far as possible). However, when leaving Llangollen a couple of days ago the engine displayed the same symptoms but with the tank level only just below half. I’m out for another 2 weeks yet so who knows what fuel state will invoke this problem!!

Both fuel filters are Crosland 522 changed at 1250hrs (engine now at 1460hrs), ‘Fuel Set’ used routinely – nevertheless I will consider any suggestions (I have spare fuel filters on board). I await your pearls of advice sure in the knowledge that one/some of you will give me the stear I need to resolve this issue. All I ask is that you maintain the awareness that I’m out cruising so don’t have access to spare fuel containers etc!!

 

Many thanks in anticipation

 

 

Hi

 

Can you tell me how old the engine is and where are the filters

 

Alex

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I've been told to to look at Stop Solonoid next ! Any suggestions may help us both ?

Brian

I have a Barrus Shire 1952 in a 2002 Liverpool boat, so guesss my set-up is the same as yours. The stop solenoid is normally open - ie lets fuel through. When you press the 'stop' button it activates the solenoid to close off the supply. I'm told that sometimes it can stick in the closed position - in which case you would never get the engine to start in the first place. I would have thought the chances of the solenoid spontaneously being activated are slight - unless there's a ghostly finger on the 'stop' button!

Rgds

Mike_N

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Brian

I have a Barrus Shire 1952 in a 2002 Liverpool boat, so guesss my set-up is the same as yours. The stop solenoid is normally open - ie lets fuel through. When you press the 'stop' button it activates the solenoid to close off the supply. I'm told that sometimes it can stick in the closed position - in which case you would never get the engine to start in the first place. I would have thought the chances of the solenoid spontaneously being activated are slight - unless there's a ghostly finger on the 'stop' button!

Rgds

Mike_N

 

Stop it, you're frightening everyone!

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