Mooring

[blackrose]

Why is setting a spring tricky. It takes a little longer than throwing two lines out and hoping for the best, but surely ensuring you have a comfortable evening and your boat is safely moored is a better option.

You seem to forget that most people on this forum are on narrow boats which often only have cleats or tying off points far apart at bow and stern and so are not as easy to set springs for as a boat like yours.

Edited September 11, 2009 by blackrose

[Naughty Cal]

You seem to forget that most people on this forum are on narrow boats which often only have cleats or tying off points far apart at bow and stern and so are not as easy to set springs for as a boat like yours.

 

You dont need more cleats on the boat. You can set the to bollards/rings/pins in the bank.

[Chertsey]

When we use pins we tie around the base of the pin (yes, with a boatman's hitch) and only pass the rope through the eye before tying it back on the boat so that if it does get pulled out, we won't lose it.

 

More points to attach ropes (via a shackle, so the permanent bit needn't be something that gets in the way) at gunnel level would be very useful and I'm surprised more narrow boats don't have them.

 

I've always thought of what I now know to be springs in the simple terms that you need one rope to stop the boat moving forwards, and another one to stop it moving backwards.

[mayalld]

Interesting to here some different techniques. It does worry me slightly that some take the view that on a canal water levels wont change. Water levels can change on any watercourse and (in my view) this should be taken account of when setting the mooring ropes.

 

Yes, but on the canals, the range that they can change is somewhat limited.

 

Take our mooring...

 

If the water level drops by more than 9 inches, we sit on the bottom.

 

If the water level rises by more than 2 inches, a couple of substantial overflow weirs will start to drain away the excess.

 

If the water level comes up by 9 inches, it will be overtopping the banks in parts of the canal, draining into valleys (and in one place, will probably wash away the towpath leading to a rapid drop in levels.

 

Our ropes can cope with this range.

[alan_fincher]

I've hung on to a couple of lengths of old rope for the next time I come across an unoccupied boat in the middle of nowhere, drifting across the canal on it's one remaining rope. I've seen this two or three times this year.

Ah - looking at the "press" I seem to be gaining, I think many would now assume I must have gone through shortly in front of you then!

 

(If there was one remaining rope, it would probably rule out Phylis....)

[Naughty Cal]

Of course it depends on the waterway you are on but to assume that all canals stay at a constant level is wrong. Now i dont want to get into another commercial waterways argument but if you tied your ropes very tight on the Aire & Calder or the SSYN, which are canals, you would be in trouble pretty quickly.

 

(If there was one remaining rope, it would probably rule out Phylis....)

 

That depends who you talk to. The story varies somewhat

[Chertsey]

Of course it depends on the waterway you are on but to assume that all canals stay at a constant level is wrong. Now i dont want to get into another commercial waterways argument but if you tied your ropes very tight on the Aire & Calder or the SSYN, which are canals, you would be in trouble pretty quickly.

I've only been there the once, but is not part of the SSYN the River Don? That's what it said on the railway bridges anyway. And according to my map, the Aire and Calder is river from Nottingley to Wakefield.

[Naughty Cal]

I've only been there the once, but is not part of the SSYN the River Don? That's what it said on the railway bridges anyway. And according to my map, the Aire and Calder is river from Nottingley to Wakefield.

 

Depends where on the system you are. Some of it is purely canal others bits are just lock cuts off of rivers to bypass weirs.

[Chertsey]

Depends where on the system you are. Some of it is purely canal others bits are just lock cuts off of rivers to bypass weirs.

Yes, but the point is that these are not canals. They are, at least in parts, river navigations. Therefore it could still be true to say that water levels won't change much on canals, even though they might on the SSYN and A&C.

[Naughty Cal]

Yes, but the point is that these are not canals. They are, at least in parts, river navigations. Therefore it could still be true to say that water levels won't change much on canals, even though they might on the SSYN and A&C.

 

If you want to believe that water levels never change on canals so be it.

[Chertsey]

If you want to believe that water levels never change on canals so be it.

They might or might not. That wasn't my point. My point is that the navigations you cited are not canals so cannot offer any useful insights into the question.

 

Actually I do have experience of water levels on a canal altering markedly and leaving me hanging at 45 degrees on my ropes, when someone left all the paddles open and drained the pound when I was moored at Aspley in Huddersfield.

Edited September 11, 2009 by WarriorWoman

[Naughty Cal]

Actually I do have experience of water levels on a canal altering markedly and leaving me hanging at 45 degrees on my ropes, when someone left all the paddles open and drained the pound when I was moored at Aspley in Huddersfield.

 

[alan_fincher]

If you want to believe that water levels never change on canals so be it.

You can be quite hard work, sometimes!

 

I'll try once more....

 

On "normal canals", (that are not actually part of canalised rivers), unless you tie up in very short pounds, or those guarded by locks with very leaky gates, it is nigh on impossible to tie a narrow boat up tightly enough, using just your hand and normal rope, that it will ever cause a problem. I have never, ever, heard of it, (or at least not in cases where "a bit of slack" might have made any difference - if there were a total breach, or someone drains the pound, it would be usually be academic, I think!).

 

Any better ?

 

Of course I can name a pound or two where there is so little water, and gates leak so badly, that levels go up and down like a whore's draws.

 

If you moor overnight in some I'm thinking of, you may well find the ropes go tight, but might actually end up quite grateful that they were stopping the boat rolling right over. Experience should tell most boaters to pick a different spot,.(I'll never moor in a pound that really doesn't contain many lock-fulls of water, unless there are obvious ways that the level is being maintained by a flowing water supply - they are too unpredictable, and results of losing relatively little will be magnified).

 

Obviously if you are pig-headed enough anybody can chose an inappropriate mooring, but that doesn't mean every moorer needs to leave contingency for level changes, because most of the time, unless there is a total breach, it just doesn't happen.

Edited September 11, 2009 by alan_fincher

[Naughty Cal]

On "normal canals", (that are not actually part of canalised rivers), unless you tie up in very short pounds, or those guarded by locks with very leaky gates, it is nigh on impossible to tie a narrow boat up tightly enough, using just your hand and normal rope, that it will ever cause a problem. I have never, ever, heard of it, (or at least not in cases where "a bit of slack" might have made any difference - if there were a total breach, or someone drains the pound, it would be usually be academic, I think!).

 

See warriorwomans post above

[alan_fincher]

See warriorwomans post above

Yes, it will be interesting to hear if she was only saved because she had had the foresight to leave her ropes slack when mooring up.

[Naughty Cal]

Yes, it will be interesting to hear if she was only saved because she had had the foresight to leave her ropes slack when mooring up.

 

Not slack enough as she was "hung"

[Tam & Di]

QUOTE (Phylis @ Sep 10 2009, 04:03 PM) *

However if more people did there would be far less bitching about boats moving when others pass. They do help reduce the effects to some extent.

 

No, they really don't.

 

On narrow and shallow channels, the cause of movement isn't the bow wave that springs WILL help to mitigate against.

 

The cause here is that the passing boat is pushing water behind itself, which it is gathering from in front of itself. On wider and deeper waters this just circulates right back around and under the boat without a problem.

 

On shallow, narrow canals, it builds up behind the the boat.

 

If you watch the water levels ahead of and behind a narrowboat at cruising speed, the level immediately in front of the boat can be as much as 6 inches down on normal water level, whilst the level behind is as much as 3 inches up.

 

So, when a boat passes at speed, the following happens;

• First, as the other boat approaches, the water level drops gradually, and the moored boat is drawn towards the oncoming boat. The distant mooring rope comes under tension, and the close one slackens slightly.
  
• Then, as the boat passes, the water level rapidly goes up 9 inches, first at the end with the slackest rope, until the rope at that end checks its progress, and the rise in the water progresses towards the other end.
  
• At the same time, the moored boat begins to be pulled to follow the passing boat, bringing the rope that was closest to the passing boat at the start into tension, pulling that end down, at the same time as the water drops 3 inches.
  

This whole thing causes a quite violent fore and aft pitch, and because it tends to bring ropes that are not horizontal into excess tension causes side to side roll as well.

 

The description of water movement is basically correct, but on deeper commercial waterways something else comes into effect as well.

 

Boat moors tied fore and aft, hopefully to something that is not going to pull out. Loaded commercial vessel approaches (travelling in same direction for ease of description) and water level drops, probably more than the 6" quoted. Moored boat is drawn backwards, and the pull is exerted not by a propellor moving a boat of 16(?) tonnes, but one of 300(?) tonnes. Moored boat's forward line a) stretches and leaves the fore end free to swing out. As a bonus: maybe breaks, or c) maybe the attachment pulls out.

 

Ignoring the two latter possibilities, as commercial vessel comes level with stern of moored boat the "following" water starts throwing moored boat forward. The fore end is still ahead of the prop of the commercial and is drawn out away from the bank by the pull of this prop. The forward line has already stretched and is therefore now loose, and the stern line also now stretches. The very possible scenario is the fore end of "was moored" boat comes into contact with commercial.

 

If the moored craft has springs out, the first action is that it is drawn backwards and the fore line stretches, as before. But the tension is on the stern spring as well, so the craft slides backwards along the bank. As commercial comes level and the moored boat is now thrown forward, the stern line tightens and stretches, but the tension is taken by the bow spring as well, and again the moored craft slides along the bank, but remains parallel to it.

 

We see lots of boats in France which have come from a UK canal background. We commonly see the owners shaking their fist at a loaded boat as it passes. The movement is not necessarily caused by speed; it is simply the power involved in moving a heavy vessel, plus the volume of water that has to move as such vessel passes. We also came across a term we had never heard before, where the moored boater berates the commercial for "tipping" him. This seems endemic with boats moored from an eye in the top of the casing down to a ring or bollard! In each event the "problem" is not down to the passing commercial, but to the ignorance of the moorer.

Edited September 11, 2009 by Tam & Di

[Naughty Cal]

Someone speaks sense

[Chertsey]

I don't know why you're doing this as I never set out to say anything about water levels in canals.

 

I just pointed out that you stated that the SSYN and Aire and Calder are canals, and they aren't, so they weren't relevant to the argument.

 

I wasn't participating in the other debate at all, until I remembered that I had a marginally amusing anecdote that was relevant.

 

And I don't think it would have been worth the trouble of tying up on slack ropes for eighteen months on the offchance of some halfwit or vandal draining the pound.

[blackrose]

You dont need more cleats on the boat. You can set the to bollards/rings/pins in the bank.

Yes you can do but that's not as easy as having cleats. In addition most NB cleats are only really designed for a single rope.

[bargemast]

The description of water movement is basically correct, but on deeper commercial waterways something else comes into effect as well.

 

Boat moors tied fore and aft, hopefully to something that is not going to pull out. Loaded commercial vessel approaches (travelling in same direction for ease of description) and water level drops, probably more than the 6" quoted. Moored boat is drawn backwards, and the pull is exerted not by a propellor moving a boat of 16(?) tonnes, but one of 300(?) tonnes. Moored boat's forward line a) stretches and leaves the fore end free to swing out. As a bonus: maybe breaks, or c) maybe the attachment pulls out.

 

Ignoring the two latter possibilities, as commercial vessel comes level with stern of moored boat the "following" water starts throwing moored boat forward. The fore end is still ahead of the prop of the commercial and is drawn out away from the bank by the pull of this prop. The forward line has already stretched and is therefore now loose, and the stern line also now stretches. The very possible scenario is the fore end of "was moored" boat comes into contact with commercial.

 

If the moored craft has springs out, the first action is that it is drawn backwards and the fore line stretches, as before. But the tension is on the stern spring as well, so the craft slides backwards along the bank. As commercial comes level and the moored boat is now thrown forward, the stern line tightens and stretches, but the tension is taken by the bow spring as well, and again the moored craft slides along the bank, but remains parallel to it.

 

We see lots of boats in France which have come from a UK canal background. We commonly see the owners shaking their fist at a loaded boat as it passes. The movement is not necessarily caused by speed; it is simply the power involved in moving a heavy vessel, plus the volume of water that has to move as such vessel passes. We also came across a term we had never heard before, where the moored boater berates the commercial for "tipping" him. This seems endemic with boats moored from an eye in the top of the casing down to a ring or bollard! In each event the "problem" is not down to the passing commercial, but to the ignorance of the moorer.

 

 

Never counted the number of times that people on moored boats that I passed (very slowly !) were not shaking their fists but were friendly waving, thereby not realising that their mooring spikes had pulled out and that they had come adrift, they were almost always hireboaters happy with a bankside were they could just push instead of hammer their mooring-pins in. I'm sure that they were more careful with picking their mooring spot and the quality of the bank-side where they needed a heavy hammer for their spikes later.

 

Peter.

[Byeckerslike]

Hi,

 

Personally, I do prefer to use a pair of mooring chains, with elongated rings at each end, I drop one end through the Armaco piling horizontal rail, pass one end through the other and then pass a loop of mooring line through the loose end of the chain. I then drop the opposite end of the rope over the bow cleat and make secure with an oxo knot (twice round the cleat, under the cleat, diagonally over the cleat, under and around again twice (this is a self-locking knot), if I cannot use chains, then I'll use the ole trusty mooring iron. Ideally, the angle of the rope to the armaco should be at least 45°.

I do the same at the stern, but use the self locking boatman's hitch.

 

I usually try at all costs to avoiding using mooring pins.

[bargemast]

Hi,

 

Personally, I do prefer to use a pair of mooring chains, with elongated rings at each end, I drop one end through the Armaco piling horizontal rail, pass one end through the other and then pass a loop of mooring line through the loose end of the chain. I then drop the opposite end of the rope over the bow cleat and make secure with an oxo knot (twice round the cleat, under the cleat, diagonally over the cleat, under and around again twice (this is a self-locking knot), if I cannot use chains, then I'll use the ole trusty mooring iron. Ideally, the angle of the rope to the armaco should be at least 45°.

I do the same at the stern, but use the self locking boatman's hitch.

 

I usually try at all costs to avoiding using mooring pins.

 

 

This all sound very safe and secure, apart from the fact that you won't find Armaco pilings everywhere you want to moor. So what's your practise in a case like that, I think that it will be pretty hard to get away with not using mooring pins.

 

Peter.

[Tam & Di]

This all sound very safe and secure, apart from the fact that you won't find Armaco pilings everywhere you want to moor. So what's your practise in a case like that, I think that it will be pretty hard to get away with not using mooring pins.

 

Peter.

 

Are Spyro-base ground anchors used by anyone? They look like a very sturdy giant corkscrew with a circular plate at the top. They screw into the ground - a bar put through the ring at the top and turn them in - and the disk at the top apparently stops them pulling over. Admittedly the weight of many pleasure boats used in France is probably greater than most in the UK, and the passing commercial craft exert greater pull than a narrow boat, but use of hooks on pilings is generally frowned upon. The lightweight modern stuff has a tendency to bend, and the VNF get cross.

 

We met a guy recently who had a pair of these ground anchors and he swears by them - says even in rather sandy soil on Dutch waterways with very large commercials passing he has not had them fail yet. They are pretty expensive, but he said he got his quite cheaply in the UK at a garden centre promotion - they're advertised as an anti-theft device for caravans apparently.

 

Because the eye which you fasten a line to is immediately on top of the circular top plate there is minimal leverage on the pin. This guy's wife is not up to knocking spikes in with a lump hammer, but can wind these "corkscrews" in with ease. In a dodgy mooring he padlocks a length of mooring chain to the ring so idle hands can't let his lines loose.

 

 

(edited for further explanation)

Edited September 12, 2009 by Tam & Di

[nb Innisfree]

Keep meaning to make some mooring 'plates', large(ish) sheets of checkerplate or similar with lots of s/s coachbolts stuck out of the bottom, sort of an upside down bed of nails. Hole in the middle for mooring pin, reckon it would hold in any soft ground.