Paying for red diesel

[BlueStringPudding]

We filled up with red diesel at Stockton Top Marina last Tuesday. The chap there told us that they have a fixed charge for diesel - they don't do the tax split that most places do. He said their diesel cost a set price of ninety-something-pence per unit and he said that was the upper price (eg. propulsion fuel price) - if we wanted a split price he said we should go to Calcutt. We weighed up the pro's and cons of filling up elsewhere, but decided that we'd just pay the fixed price since we were getting other services at that marina anyway and we didn't think we needed a huge amount of diesel.

 

However, after I'd paid for it all, he told me I had to write my boat-number down and sign a piece of paper. That piece of paper showed a cost split for the diesel - the total for which was a lot less than I had paid him. I asked him why that was on the paper and he said it's something they just have to do for the regulations. I was unsure, but he was insistent that they have to do this paperwork, so I signed the piece of paper. I then noticed it had small print that said I had confirmed that I would used the fuel in a 60% / 40% split for heating and propulsion. Again I questioned this, because having one fixed upper price, I could use 100% on propulsion if I wanted to. He agreed and said yes I could use it all on propulsion if I wanted to, then he hastily took the piece of paper out of my hand and told me as he'd already told me I could have gone to Calcutt for the fuel and that I had chosen not to, I had to accept that they needed this paperwork and that-was-that. He made it quite clear that the conversation would end there!

 

After Kev and I left, I felt increasingly uncomforatble about this and the more I thought about it the more I wondered whether this boatyard is operating a tax scam on the regulators/governement (purely my opinion and speculation, I hasten to add). Otherwise why be so insistent that I sign a piece of paper which, the more I think about it, is clearly falsifying information? Do they get to pay just the split-rate tax percentage to the government bods who regulate the system, and pocket the rest they've charged us? And if so, how many other punters have they done this to aswell?

 

We chose to pay the higher rate for our fuel, that's fine. But what I'm concerned about is that I'm not sure they're being honest with the regulators about what they're charging us. Or do you guys think I've got this all wrong and there's a legitimate reason for me having to sign a piece of paper that says I paid a lot less than I really did for my fuel?

 

What do people think about this? Are there other boatyards doing this? (Incidentally the chap at Stockton Top Marina told us that Kate Boats in Warwick do the same thing (but they're run by the same people) - so there's at least two boatyards doing this as standard practise.

 

I'm just curious as to everyone's thoughts about it...?

[dor]

We filled up with red diesel at Stockton Top Marina last Tuesday. The chap there told us that they have a fixed charge for diesel - they don't do the tax split that most places do. He said their diesel cost a set price of ninety-something-pence per unit and he said that was the upper price (eg. propulsion fuel price) - if we wanted a split price he said we should go to Calcutt. We weighed up the pro's and cons of filling up elsewhere, but decided that we'd just pay the fixed price since we were getting other services at that marina anyway and we didn't think we needed a huge amount of diesel.

 

However, after I'd paid for it all, he told me I had to write my boat-number down and sign a piece of paper. That piece of paper showed a cost split for the diesel - the total for which was a lot less than I had paid him. I asked him why that was on the paper and he said it's something they just have to do for the regulations. I was unsure, but he was insistent that they have to do this paperwork, so I signed the piece of paper. I then noticed it had small print that said I had confirmed that I would used the fuel in a 60% / 40% split for heating and propulsion. Again I questioned this, because having one fixed upper price, I could use 100% on propulsion if I wanted to. He agreed and said yes I could use it all on propulsion if I wanted to, then he hastily took the piece of paper out of my hand and told me as he'd already told me I could have gone to Calcutt for the fuel and that I had chosen not to, I had to accept that they needed this paperwork and that-was-that. He made it quite clear that the conversation would end there!

 

After Kev and I left, I felt increasingly uncomforatble about this and the more I thought about it the more I wondered whether this boatyard is operating a tax scam on the regulators/governement (purely my opinion and speculation, I hasten to add). Otherwise why be so insistent that I sign a piece of paper which, the more I think about it, is clearly falsifying information? Do they get to pay just the split-rate tax percentage to the government bods who regulate the system, and pocket the rest they've charged us? And if so, how many other punters have they done this to aswell?

 

We chose to pay the higher rate for our fuel, that's fine. But what I'm concerned about is that I'm not sure they're being honest with the regulators about what they're charging us. Or do you guys think I've got this all wrong and there's a legitimate reason for me having to sign a piece of paper that says I paid a lot less than I really did for my fuel?

 

What do people think about this? Are there other boatyards doing this? (Incidentally the chap at Stockton Top Marina told us that Kate Boats in Warwick do the same thing (but they're run by the same people) - so there's at least two boatyards doing this as standard practise.

 

I'm just curious as to everyone's thoughts about it...?

 

Firstly, it's not up to the boat yard to decide what split to make, so they are conning you there. Secondly, if they make you sign a form declaring a split after charging you full price, they are certainly conning you. However the price you paid may have been based on their fixed split, despite what you were told. Still should let you make your own declaration though.

[cotswoldsman]

I guess he can charge what he likes, not going to comment on what he does with the money will let my imagination do that!! The thing is the more information we have on boat yards that don't let boaters make there own declaration the better so that we know what yards to avoid if we dont want to declare 60/40 infact think I will start a section on my web page listing those that won't let boaters make there own declaration so if anyone knows any others can they please let me know via pm giving name of yard and the name of canal.

[greywolf]

I guess he can charge what he likes, not going to comment on what he does with the money will let my imagination do that!! The thing is the more information we have on boat yards that don't let boaters make there own declaration the better so that we know what yards to avoid if we dont want to declare 60/40 infact think I will start a section on my web page listing those that won't let boaters make there own declaration so if anyone knows any others can they please let me know via pm giving name of yard and the name of canal.

thats a good idia the blog site no problem already has one i think but the more information that is out there the better clicky

 

edited to supply link

Edited August 10, 2009 by greywolf

[alan_fincher]

Some places are (still) enforcing that you can only buy on a 60% propulsion / 40% other split.

 

Personally I would not touch with a barge pole, even though we declare 60/40, because they should not be deciding what you use for what - it is quite clear that that is your responsibility, not theirs. I chose to avoid places that may be making other boaters lives difficult.

 

If the do charge you 60/40, then you should be paying the higher rate tax only on the 60% part.

 

So say you buy 100 litres, and the price before extra tax is 60p, you should pay for....

 

60 litres @ £1.06 (60pence plus 46p extra tax) = £63.60

40 litres @ 60 pence. = £24

 

So £87.60 in total.

 

Places operating in the manner described might then display a price for a 60/40 split of 87.6 pence.

 

If you are being charged over 90 pence, you are paying too much, because ity implies a base price way over 60 pence.

 

 

Whenever you buy, you must ALWAYS make a declaration, irrespective of the percentages. Some are asking for information you are not, (I believe) obliged to supply, such as a home address.

 

However the price you paid may have been based on their fixed split, despite what you were told.

I believe it was.

 

It's unlikely that they would have been selling fully taxed red for 100% propulsion use at under a pound a litre.

 

My guess is that the "ninety someting" price was for a 60/40 split. It's too high and should be an eigthy someting price, based on what we have seen on this trip.

[david and julie]

I'm not speaking specifically about the named company or people and its definately not my style, but if this happens to me I may be tempted to phone the revenue and ask them to comment.

 

I've always thought we could lose this concession through boaters being greedy. However, if the fuel suppliers fiddle the tax man we may well lose it anyway.

 

It may be in boaters interests for one someone to be made an example of, be that boater or business.

[David Schweizer]

Alan beat me to the calculations, but the going rate for that part of the world is 60p per litre before tax, So either you were ripped off for the price, or they are miscalculating the tax, or something else.

 

Next time go to Calcutt, their charge is 60p before tax, and they will calculate any split you choose to declare.

Edited August 10, 2009 by David Schweizer

[churchward]

However, after I'd paid for it all, he told me I had to write my boat-number down and sign a piece of paper. That piece of paper showed a cost split for the diesel - the total for which was a lot less than I had paid him. I asked him why that was on the paper and he said it's something they just have to do for the regulations. I was unsure, but he was insistent that they have to do this paperwork, so I signed the piece of paper. I then noticed it had small print that said I had confirmed that I would used the fuel in a 60% / 40% split for heating and propulsion. Again I questioned this, because having one fixed upper price, I could use 100% on propulsion if I wanted to. He agreed and said yes I could use it all on propulsion if I wanted to, then he hastily took the piece of paper out of my hand and told me as he'd already told me I could have gone to Calcutt for the fuel and that I had chosen not to, I had to accept that they needed this paperwork and that-was-that. He made it quite clear that the conversation would end there!

 

After Kev and I left, I felt increasingly uncomforatble about this and the more I thought about it the more I wondered whether this boatyard is operating a tax scam on the regulators/governement (purely my opinion and speculation, I hasten to add). Otherwise why be so insistent that I sign a piece of paper which, the more I think about it, is clearly falsifying information? Do they get to pay just the split-rate tax percentage to the government bods who regulate the system, and pocket the rest they've charged us? And if so, how many other punters have they done this to aswell?

I would have felt cheated and worried in much the same way as you. I can't see this is right or good practice by the boat yard for reasons mentioned by others. I shall put them on my list to avoid.

[cotswoldsman]

thats a good idia the blog site no problem already has one i think but the more information that is out there the better clicky

 

edited to supply link

 

That is very good and very useful I have often read your blog. I think I will also add a page as you say the more the better and it is something that I get very upset about HMCE clearly states that it is the boater that makes the declaration not the supplier. If a boater is told to declare say on a 60/40 because he has no choice as in when he does not have enough deisel to get to another yard (marina) and infact he uses say 90% prepulsion then he is making a false declaration and is liable to a fine not the marina as it is the boater that has signed the declaration.

[BlueStringPudding]

I'm less concerned about the price we paid - he told us the price beforehand, told us they only charge the "full tax rate" which is why he says their price is nintey-something pence, and we accepted that out of sheer laziness of going up the canal and fighting through hire boats to get the 60%/40% split. That price we chose to pay.

 

However my concern is that the hand-written thing he told me to sign claimed we're paid much much less for our fuel. It was false information. That suggests to me they are keeping the price difference and not declaring it to revenue.

Edited August 10, 2009 by BlueStringPudding

[Matthew Knowles]

I'm less concerned about the price we paid - he told us the price beforehand, told us they only charge the "full tax rate" which is why he says their price is nintey-something pence, and we accepted that out of sheer laziness of going up the canal and fighting through hire boats to get the 60%/40% split. That price we chose to pay.

 

However my concern is that the hand-written thing he told me to sign claimed we're paid much much less for our fuel. It was false information. That suggests to me they are keeping the price difference and not declaring it to revenue.

 

These places charge the tax on behalf on HMRC. If they have taken 100% at the full rate of tax (as he seems to have implied) and then only passes 60% at the higher rate onto HMRC then this would be theft, something HMRC doesn't seem to be too happy about.

 

A call to HMRC may be in order. If they think it's serious enough then they would conduct an audit to determine if there is any breach of the rules and see if there is any action to be taken.

[mikevye]

I still think that with diesel at £0.99/litre from asda I'd rather top up with white diesel for propulsion keep the receipt and buy 40% red diesel pro rata for heating and generation.

[soldthehouse]

We filled up with red diesel at Stockton Top Marina last Tuesday. The chap there told us that they have a fixed charge for diesel - they don't do the tax split that most places do. He said their diesel cost a set price of ninety-something-pence per unit and he said that was the upper price (eg. propulsion fuel price) - if we wanted a split price he said we should go to Calcutt. We weighed up the pro's and cons of filling up elsewhere, but decided that we'd just pay the fixed price since we were getting other services at that marina anyway and we didn't think we needed a huge amount of diesel.

 

However, after I'd paid for it all, he told me I had to write my boat-number down and sign a piece of paper. That piece of paper showed a cost split for the diesel - the total for which was a lot less than I had paid him. I asked him why that was on the paper and he said it's something they just have to do for the regulations. I was unsure, but he was insistent that they have to do this paperwork, so I signed the piece of paper. I then noticed it had small print that said I had confirmed that I would used the fuel in a 60% / 40% split for heating and propulsion. Again I questioned this, because having one fixed upper price, I could use 100% on propulsion if I wanted to. He agreed and said yes I could use it all on propulsion if I wanted to, then he hastily took the piece of paper out of my hand and told me as he'd already told me I could have gone to Calcutt for the fuel and that I had chosen not to, I had to accept that they needed this paperwork and that-was-that. He made it quite clear that the conversation would end there!

 

After Kev and I left, I felt increasingly uncomforatble about this and the more I thought about it the more I wondered whether this boatyard is operating a tax scam on the regulators/governement (purely my opinion and speculation, I hasten to add). Otherwise why be so insistent that I sign a piece of paper which, the more I think about it, is clearly falsifying information? Do they get to pay just the split-rate tax percentage to the government bods who regulate the system, and pocket the rest they've charged us? And if so, how many other punters have they done this to aswell?

 

We chose to pay the higher rate for our fuel, that's fine. But what I'm concerned about is that I'm not sure they're being honest with the regulators about what they're charging us. Or do you guys think I've got this all wrong and there's a legitimate reason for me having to sign a piece of paper that says I paid a lot less than I really did for my fuel?

 

What do people think about this? Are there other boatyards doing this? (Incidentally the chap at Stockton Top Marina told us that Kate Boats in Warwick do the same thing (but they're run by the same people) - so there's at least two boatyards doing this as standard practise.

 

I'm just curious as to everyone's thoughts about it...?

My sister in law works for the customs and excise . Shes been informed

[Kate Boats]

I will add a quick comment here, and then confirm when I have had a chance to check exacly what happened.

 

Our policy is to sell diesel at a 60 (propulsion): 40 (domestic) split at 90 pence per litre. That is what my wharf man meant when he said flat rate. When pressed he would have become defensive because he really understand what it is all about! The paperwork should have reflected what was sold (at a 60:40 split).

 

We are fed up to the back teeth with the whole diesel thing. Every transaction involves muttering from boaters and additional paperwork. We have annual Customs and Excise inspections, which usually involve two inspectors spending a full day at our office. They have never had a problem with our systems, or any suggestion that we are not fully complying with all legislation as required.

 

Cheryl

 

================

Kate Boats

01926 492968

www.kateboats.co.uk

================

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I have worked as OwnerShips local manager at both Calcutt and Stockton Top and as such know Nick & Cheryl Howes who own Kate Boats quite well. I have emailed them to make them aware of this thread and have no doubt that they will take the matter up - probably with the OP rather than the board.

 

***** edited to say after I clicked to post, I found Kate Boates had already responded (Why is it if I email BW, I then wait a week for for an acknowledgement and a further three weeks before they do anything about it........)

Edited August 10, 2009 by Allan(nb Albert)

[RLWP]

***** edited to say after I clicked to post, I found Kate Boats had already responded (Why is it if I email BW, I then wait a week for for an acknowledgement and a further three weeks before they do anything about it........)

 

Because being really, truly customer focused Kate Boats appreciate that talking to people is important?

 

Richard

[PeterScott]

I have emailed them to make them aware of this thread ... I found Kate Boats had already responded

Beat you in doing that by a few minutes, I guess. :-) Thanks to Cheryl for responding so quickly.

 

Boating is a small community (eg compared with motoring), so suggesting that the hard-working canal character who sold the fuel (I'm guessing a bit here, but from the description of the incident maybe not very much), was displaying his gruffer side that day: and who wouldn't given the absurd fiddling-about that HMRC has invented for us? However much he was in a not-suffering-fools mode that day, he didn't deserve, on a public forum, to be accused of dishonesty. IMHO.

[Dekazer]

Blimey, this tax declaration thing doesn't half make things difficult.

 

I reckon that it's good practice to keep copies of things you sign, and receipts for things that be required by people like HMRC. I'd be a bit concerned if someone refused me a copy of a declaration I'd signed.

 

It's hard to divine the truth from threads on a public forum like this, but it's useful to hear people's ideas, so I'm glad BSP posted it. It'll make me think carefully (again) about how I buy diesel and where, and what I need to get from the vendor.

 

I hope that the company in question are able to consider how confusing the process can be for their customers, particularly those new to boating, and can think of a way to explain their process quickly and easily. Perhaps a printed crib sheet could be displayed by the till, and maybe all customers could be given a copy of their declaration to take away with them in future. If the process is sound then it's just a question of communicating it to customers more effectively.

 

It's common practice elsewhere on t'interwebs for customers of all sorts of companies to post comments about the service they received - and it's reassuring when companies use their right to reply to explain processes and planned improvements

 

(Edited to clarify I meant Revenue and Customs)

Edited August 10, 2009 by Dekazer

[Tim Doran]

I want to join in.... I still think that it is up to the buyer to state how much they would like to claim. Whether this is the best way to operate a system I am undecided.

 

However it should not be upto companies to intrepet the law when the advice given by HRMC is clear.

 

Tim

[Tiny]

Mr Wheaton Aston - the cheap chap who sells loads of fuel - has the split system prorammed on his till/computer. When he first gets your details, including the split you want it all goes in the machine. Next time you call he takes you boat number and the macine tells him the split you had last time. If it's the same this time no forms to fill - you fill and sign and pay. Simples.

[mayalld]

I want to join in.... I still think that it is up to the buyer to state how much they would like to claim. Whether this is the best way to operate a system I am undecided.

 

However it should not be upto companies to intrepet the law when the advice given by HRMC is clear.

 

Tim

 

It is up to the buyer to decide what split they would like to claim.

 

It is up to the supplier to decide which customers they would like to deal with.

 

If a supplier decides to restrict the splits, they are making a business decision as to how much business they will lose against the increased efficiency/accuracy.

[David Schweizer]

I will add a quick comment here, and then confirm when I have had a chance to check exacly what happened.

 

Our policy is to sell diesel at a 60 (propulsion): 40 (domestic) split at 90 pence per litre. That is what my wharf man meant when he said flat rate. When pressed he would have become defensive because he really understand what it is all about! The paperwork should have reflected what was sold (at a 60:40 split).

 

We are fed up to the back teeth with the whole diesel thing. Every transaction involves muttering from boaters and additional paperwork. We have annual Customs and Excise inspections, which usually involve two inspectors spending a full day at our office. They have never had a problem with our systems, or any suggestion that we are not fully complying with all legislation as required.

 

Cheryl

 

================

Kate Boats

01926 492968

www.kateboats.co.uk

================

I have some sympathy with the difficulties created by the new tax arrangements, but as a business working in the leisure industry, I am sure that there are other tax calculations which have to be performed on a regular basis, which are no more complex than the Diesel split one.

 

All the boatyards I have visited to buy diesel have asked what split I want and tapped that into their calculator and come up with a figure, No fuss, no insistance in 60%/40% ( althouigh that is what I declare) It really is not rocket science, and I do not believe that they find it so difficuolt. It is an attitude of mind, rather than an inability to understand.

 

But then this is the same Boatyard whuich two years ago, could not accept a credit card payment, without the attendant walking several hundred yards to the portacabin office to make a phone call, and in the process getting the amount I owed wrong, and having to go back again to get some cash to reimburse me for the overcharge.

[cotswoldsman]

I will add a quick comment here, and then confirm when I have had a chance to check exacly what happened.

 

Our policy is to sell diesel at a 60 (propulsion): 40 (domestic) split at 90 pence per litre. That is what my wharf man meant when he said flat rate. When pressed he would have become defensive because he really understand what it is all about! The paperwork should have reflected what was sold (at a 60:40 split).

 

We are fed up to the back teeth with the whole diesel thing. Every transaction involves muttering from boaters and additional paperwork. We have annual Customs and Excise inspections, which usually involve two inspectors spending a full day at our office. They have never had a problem with our systems, or any suggestion that we are not fully complying with all legislation as required.

 

Cheryl

 

================

Kate Boats

01926 492968

www.kateboats.co.uk

================

 

Thank you for explaining your policy.

 

I for one will certainly not be using your facilities for anything and will also recomend to fellow boaters that they give your company a big miss.

It would appear that your company can not be bothered with its potential customers and in the case of people who use more than 60% propulsion incouraging them to make a false declaration to HMCE.

Its a good job that companies like your are in the minority and that most marinas are customer focused enough to allow boaters to make there own declaration.

 

 

It is up to the buyer to decide what split they would like to claim.

 

It is up to the supplier to decide which customers they would like to deal with.

 

If a supplier decides to restrict the splits, they are making a business decision as to how much business they will lose against the increased efficiency/accuracy.

 

David I agree with you and as stated before I would hope that boaters do no business with the marinas that impose a set split.

I am starting a section on my web site to make boaters aware of marinas to avoid and will use the old fashioned word of mouth.

[mayalld]

David I agree with you and as stated before I would hope that boaters do no business with the marinas that impose a set split.

I am starting a section on my web site to make boaters aware of marinas to avoid and will use the old fashioned word of mouth.

 

So, will you also decline to do business with canalside businesses (chandleries etc) that don't sell diesel at all?

[furnessvale]

Mr Wheaton Aston - the cheap chap who sells loads of fuel - has the split system prorammed on his till/computer. When he first gets your details, including the split you want it all goes in the machine. Next time you call he takes you boat number and the macine tells him the split you had last time. If it's the same this time no forms to fill - you fill and sign and pay. Simples.

 

HMRC have decided that a single declaration annually will suffice. Repeat purchasers from narrowboat ALTON do not have to complete another declaration form if the split, which is self declared, has not changed.

 

George ex nb Alton retired