Paying for red diesel

[Tootles]

We were on the Lanky earlier this year and I couldn't remember being aware of a shortage of diesel outlets. We used the "Complete Guide ot the Lancaster" 4th edition and it shows that diesel is available at Arlen Boats, Pendle Marine, Mons Bridge Marina, Barton Grange Marina, Bridge House Marina, Glasson Bridge Marina and Carnforth. Have all seven of them stopped selling diesel? Although the Lanky is not the busiest canal I would have thought that there were enough "home" and visiting narrow boats to make selling diesel viable. The lanky is a beautiful canal and we thoroughly enjoyed our all too short trip up there.

haggis.

 

Well, Moons Bridge will now only sell for non propulsion use, Pendle marine sells in cans, (no connection over tow-path.) Barton Grange Marina do a canal side pump out, but do not sell fuel, Arlen Boats is a hire base, with no access if you don't moor there, Bridge House Marina and Carnforth have stopped selling fuel altogether. Your right, however, that Glasson Basin DO sell diesel, but it's down six wide locks, which are closed when the water is low, as well as during the winter. (Glasson Basin serves river/sea traffic). The book you refer to is a walkers/historical publication, and is not meant to depict facilities, (unlike Nicholson's, but THATS 300 years out of date.)

So back to the 'illegal' cans & garages then, I'm afraid. And really, who gives a b****r if the garage you take your cans to is acting 'illegally' or not. We have just had eleven pages of stuff about who is wrong or right over a percentage of whatever, mixed with those who suddenly produce dog collars and pulpits about what might be fiddling the tax man, and what might not. (Would these same people hand in a fiver they found on the towpath, I would ask?) Stuff the tax man, and all his garbage. Never has such a stupid set of unenforceable regulations been thought up as these, (except maybe the long gone 'window tax', or maybe the poll tax.) Even the C&E guy I was talking to a few weeks ago about this very subject agreed. As long as people don't put the (red) stuff into road vehicles, and many are, their not one jot interested in boats, or the contents of their fuel tanks. How many boats have been stopped canal-side in the last twelve months? Sorry peeps, but it's much ado about nothing, the net result of all the Government poo-hoo has been that many boat yards and marinas have stopped selling the red stuff, which is not only an inconvenience to us all, but a move that has made the risk of physical injury through toting heavy cans more likely. :lol:

[soldthehouse]

Well, Moons Bridge will now only sell for non propulsion use, Pendle marine sells in cans, (no connection over tow-path.) Barton Grange Marina do a canal side pump out, but do not sell fuel, Arlen Boats is a hire base, with no access if you don't moor there, Bridge House Marina and Carnforth have stopped selling fuel altogether. Your right, however, that Glasson Basin DO sell diesel, but it's down six wide locks, which are closed when the water is low, as well as during the winter. (Glasson Basin serves river/sea traffic). The book you refer to is a walkers/historical publication, and is not meant to depict facilities, (unlike Nicholson's, but THATS 300 years out of date.)

So back to the 'illegal' cans & garages then, I'm afraid. And really, who gives a b****r if the garage you take your cans to is acting 'illegally' or not. We have just had eleven pages of stuff about who is wrong or right over a percentage of whatever, mixed with those who suddenly produce dog collars and pulpits about what might be fiddling the tax man, and what might not. (Would these same people hand in a fiver they found on the towpath, I would ask?) Stuff the tax man, and all his garbage. Never has such a stupid set of unenforceable regulations been thought up as these, (except maybe the long gone 'window tax', or maybe the poll tax.) Even the C&E guy I was talking to a few weeks ago about this very subject agreed. As long as people don't put the (red) stuff into road vehicles, and many are, their not one jot interested in boats, or the contents of their fuel tanks. How many boats have been stopped canal-side in the last twelve months? Sorry peeps, but it's much ado about nothing, the net result of all the Government poo-hoo has been that many boat yards and marinas have stopped selling the red stuff, which is not only an inconvenience to us all, but a move that has made the risk of physical injury through toting heavy cans more likely. :lol:

180 bullseye

[cotswoldsman]

We were on the Lanky earlier this year and I couldn't remember being aware of a shortage of diesel outlets. We used the "Complete Guide ot the Lancaster" 4th edition and it shows that diesel is available at Arlen Boats, Pendle Marine, Mons Bridge Marina, Barton Grange Marina, Bridge House Marina, Glasson Bridge Marina and Carnforth. Have all seven of them stopped selling diesel? Although the Lanky is not the busiest canal I would have thought that there were enough "home" and visiting narrow boats to make selling diesel viable. The lanky is a beautiful canal and we thoroughly enjoyed our all too short trip up there.

haggis.

 

Well hope you enjoyed yourself, where did you fill up????? I have been on the Lancs for 4 months and I can tell you there is nowhere to buy diesel except as I said before 1 place selling it for non propulsion, I am told Glasson Basin has a place selling diesel when it is open. I would suggest that you except the word of someone on the Lancs than some guide book that maybe should be re named the "Incomplete Guide to the Lancaster" get your money back!!!

 

Boaters and Fuel Depot are both breaking the law . . .

Ah well in that case will buy some oars or do you have a better suggestion ah yes a horse, used to be very popular I am told.

[Sandra F]

Just as an aside, we bought some diesel for our boat from a small chandlery recently, and the owner (no names!) said "I know someone related to a senior revenue man reponsible for amongst other things the tax we boaters pay on diesel, and is quoted as saying that he had neither the time nor the resources nor the inclination to do any checking about what is going on when boaters buy the stuff".

 

Mind you, they'd soon be around if we all started to declare 95% for heating. I'm still waiting for the early morning knock on the door when, in the early days of all this, my wife paid the bill for some diesel, and due to a combination of inexperience on her part and that of the young man who served her, they managed to get the 60/40 the wrong way round.

 

Barry F

[Tootles]

Just as an aside, we bought some diesel for our boat from a small chandlery recently, and the owner (no names!) said "I know someone related to a senior revenue man reponsible for amongst other things the tax we boaters pay on diesel, and is quoted as saying that he had neither the time nor the resources nor the inclination to do any checking about what is going on when boaters buy the stuff".

 

Mind you, they'd soon be around if we all started to declare 95% for heating. I'm still waiting for the early morning knock on the door when, in the early days of all this, my wife paid the bill for some diesel, and due to a combination of inexperience on her part and that of the young man who served her, they managed to get the 60/40 the wrong way round.

 

Barry F

 

Ha Ha......I have a pound that says you wont hear a thing. It's a game called 'Official Paperwork That Means Nothing'

[Tiller Slave]

Well, Moons Bridge will now only sell for non propulsion use, Pendle marine sells in cans, (no connection over tow-path.) Barton Grange Marina do a canal side pump out, but do not sell fuel, Arlen Boats is a hire base, with no access if you don't moor there, Bridge House Marina and Carnforth have stopped selling fuel altogether. Your right, however, that Glasson Basin DO sell diesel, but it's down six wide locks, which are closed when the water is low, as well as during the winter. (Glasson Basin serves river/sea traffic). The book you refer to is a walkers/historical publication, and is not meant to depict facilities, (unlike Nicholson's, but THATS 300 years out of date.)

So back to the 'illegal' cans & garages then, I'm afraid. And really, who gives a b****r if the garage you take your cans to is acting 'illegally' or not. We have just had eleven pages of stuff about who is wrong or right over a percentage of whatever, mixed with those who suddenly produce dog collars and pulpits about what might be fiddling the tax man, and what might not. (Would these same people hand in a fiver they found on the towpath, I would ask?) Stuff the tax man, and all his garbage. Never has such a stupid set of unenforceable regulations been thought up as these, (except maybe the long gone 'window tax', or maybe the poll tax.) Even the C&E guy I was talking to a few weeks ago about this very subject agreed. As long as people don't put the (red) stuff into road vehicles, and many are, their not one jot interested in boats, or the contents of their fuel tanks. How many boats have been stopped canal-side in the last twelve months? Sorry peeps, but it's much ado about nothing, the net result of all the Government poo-hoo has been that many boat yards and marinas have stopped selling the red stuff, which is not only an inconvenience to us all, but a move that has made the risk of physical injury through toting heavy cans more likely. :lol:

 

Interesting that some many previous suppliers of diesel here have now GIVEN UP!

 

What this demonstrates is that the extra paperwork, and hassle from boaters, for what is generally a low profit items, with huge potential fines if you upset/ get it wrong from HMRC, has lead many in the trade to give up selling diesel.

 

Many of the posts here seem to fail to grasp that the"higher" rate is actually a form of tax collected by the boat yards for HMRC, the extra cost DOES NOT go to the retailer.

 

If the boat diesel retailing business was lucrative, surely we would be seeing many more companies/ individuals rushing to open up/ cash in.

 

The reality is many who currently sell will probably pack up if more boaters use jerry cans from road retailers, especially if they need to make any additional facility investments such as new pumps or tanks, as the profit margins are very small.

[cotswoldsman]

Interesting that some many previous suppliers of diesel here have now GIVEN UP!

 

What this demonstrates is that the extra paperwork, and hassle from boaters, for what is generally a low profit items, with huge potential fines if you upset/ get it wrong from HMRC, has lead many in the trade to give up selling diesel.

 

Many of the posts here seem to fail to grasp that the"higher" rate is actually a form of tax collected by the boat yards for HMRC, the extra cost DOES NOT go to the retailer.

 

If the boat diesel retailing business was lucrative, surely we would be seeing many more companies/ individuals rushing to open up/ cash in.

 

The reality is many who currently sell will probably pack up if more boaters use jerry cans from road retailers, especially if they need to make any additional facility investments such as new pumps or tanks, as the profit margins are very small.

 

You are right and you are wrong!!!

I am told this was a problem before the new regulations mainly due to the fact there are so few visitors on the Lancaster due to limited space on Ribble Link. The main reason that most stoped selling diesel was that most of the boats are cruisers and most I am told run on petrol, the remainder have normaly always boaught diesel from other suppliers.

What the Lancaster proves to me is that even if marinas stop selling diesel there are other ways to get it and the world does not stop just because marinas do not sell diesel.

[alan_fincher]

Many of the posts here seem to fail to grasp that the"higher" rate is actually a form of tax collected by the boat yards for HMRC, the extra cost DOES NOT go to the retailer.

An interesting observation, but I can't recall any that made me think the poster actually thought that......

 

Can you point out the "many" examples ?

 

I wonder how many outlets have ceased the retail sale of red diesel altogether as a result of the November 1st changes ?

 

Some fall by the wayside anyway, but I haven't seen anywhere yet that used to sell red that has stopped - only those placing this unnecessary 60/40 restriction. (maybe different in areas we've not visited, I'll admit).

 

As has been said previously, the reseller doesn't necessarily need to be making a huge profit off their sales, if it results in people continuing to stop and buy other items or services on which they are making a good level of profit.

 

I seldom only buy diesel unless (like one or two outlets) diesel is the only service they offer, and they are cheap, (..... and why can they make a living out of it, then ?....).

 

Not one of the dealers who chooses or has chosen to get invoilved in this forum has made any rational posting as to why they need to enforce an artificial 60/40 split in order to continue trading, nor explained why the one man band operations can easily handle it, and they can not. I still think they should, or I can't see that it is unreasonable to question what I believe is a bad policy for boaters in general.

[haggis]

You are right and you are wrong!!!

I am told this was a problem before the new regulations mainly due to the fact there are so few visitors on the Lancaster due to limited space on Ribble Link. The main reason that most stoped selling diesel was that most of the boats are cruisers and most I am told run on petrol, the remainder have normaly always boaught diesel from other suppliers.

 

 

/quote]

 

What happened before the Ribble Link opened? presumably all the retailers (or most of them) listed in guides sold diesel then so it must have been commercially viable to do so. If the outlets survived then, how can more boats coming onto the Lanky via the Ribble Link be a factor? I agree though, there should be far more boats accommodated in the crossing than there are.

 

haggis

[Tiller Slave]

An interesting observation, but I can't recall any that made me think the poster actually thought that......

 

Can you point out the "many" examples ?

 

I wonder how many outlets have ceased the retail sale of red diesel altogether as a result of the November 1st changes ?

 

I know of several, including a major hire fleet on the llangollen

 

Some fall by the wayside anyway, but I haven't seen anywhere yet that used to sell red that has stopped - only those placing this unnecessary 60/40 restriction. (maybe different in areas we've not visited, I'll admit).

 

As has been said previously, the reseller doesn't necessarily need to be making a huge profit off their sales, if it results in people continuing to stop and buy other items or services on which they are making a good level of profit.

 

Do the maths- minimum wages x time divided by net profit per litre, it does not come to much!

 

I seldom only buy diesel unless (like one or two outlets) diesel is the only service they offer, and they are cheap, (..... and why can they make a living out of it, then ?....).

 

Are they actually making much of a "living"?

 

Not one of the dealers who chooses or has chosen to get invoilved in this forum has made any rational posting as to why they need to enforce an artificial 60/40 split in order to continue trading, nor explained why the one man band operations can easily handle it, and they can not. I still think they should, or I can't see that it is unreasonable to question what I believe is a bad policy for boaters in general.

 

Perhaps as this is their main source of income they are more determined than a company where the % of profit from diesel is very low

[alan_fincher]

I know of several, including a major hire fleet on the llangollen.

I think it's fair to say that some major hire fleet operators are not that fussed about diesel sales to private boaters.

 

Often those boaters want serving just at the busiest times on turn-round days.

 

Our local (independent) hire fleet operator will sell you diesel in an emergency, but appear to have chosen a price structure to deliberately discourage it.

 

Are they actually making much of a "living"?

My assumption is that they are not a charity offering a benevolent service to boaters.

 

You chose not to show the many posts you referred to that demonstrate.....

 

Many of the posts here seem to fail to grasp that the"higher" rate is actually a form of tax collected by the boat yards for HMRC, the extra cost DOES NOT go to the retailer.

[Tootles]

You are right and you are wrong!!!

I am told this was a problem before the new regulations mainly due to the fact there are so few visitors on the Lancaster due to limited space on Ribble Link. The main reason that most stoped selling diesel was that most of the boats are cruisers and most I am told run on petrol, the remainder have normaly always boaught diesel from other suppliers.

 

 

/quote]

 

What happened before the Ribble Link opened? presumably all the retailers (or most of them) listed in guides sold diesel then so it must have been commercially viable to do so. If the outlets survived then, how can more boats coming onto the Lanky via the Ribble Link be a factor? I agree though, there should be far more boats accommodated in the crossing than there are.

 

haggis

 

Well, the shortage of retail red diesel outlets on the Lanky was not there until just after the new regulations came into force. Most of the petrol cruisers 'can' their own fuel in anyway, and have always done so.

Now it could be that those boatyards/marinas had all decided to stop selling red before the new measures had taken effect, but one in Garstang who I spoke to last week said "It was hardly worth the effort of leaving the shop to sell derv to boats, but once we realised the added cost of our time becoming unpaid tax collectors as well............"

I think that the selling of fuel was, (and is), counted as a customer service, and not a provider of huge profits.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the accommodation of more boats on the Ribble Link crossing is dependant on lock capacity, and tide times. There are, of coarse, no 'safe havens' either side, to accommodate late boats. I know that Preston Docks are often quoted, (and used), as a Northbound safe haven, but there again, this facility is only available for a short time before and after high tide, due to the lock/bridgekeeper only being on duty at these times. The wind over water factor both on the Ribble, and the Douglas, can affect crossing times drastically, especially for slower boats.

[haggis]

/

 

Well, the shortage of retail red diesel outlets on the Lanky was not there until just after the new regulations came into force. Most of the petrol cruisers 'can' their own fuel in anyway, and have always done so.

Now it could be that those boatyards/marinas had all decided to stop selling red before the new measures had taken effect, but one in Garstang who I spoke to last week said "It was hardly worth the effort of leaving the shop to sell derv to boats, but once we realised the added cost of our time becoming unpaid tax collectors as well............"

I think that the selling of fuel was, (and is), counted as a customer service, and not a provider of huge profits.

 

I think that is the situation all over and is probably why some outlets take the "easy option" of confining themsleves to one split.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the accommodation of more boats on the Ribble Link crossing is dependant on lock capacity, and tide times. There are, of coarse, no 'safe havens' either side, to accommodate late boats. I know that Preston Docks are often quoted, (and used), as a Northbound safe haven, but there again, this facility is only available for a short time before and after high tide, due to the lock/bridgekeeper only being on duty at these times. The wind over water factor both on the Ribble, and the Douglas, can affect crossing times drastically, especially for slower boats.

 

yes, I agree with what you say but we felt that the times of the crossings were not only to fit in with tides (essential!) but also BW working hours. There are several dates when there are no crossings and if BW was prepared to have staff available to work early or late to see boats in and out, there could perhpas be more crossings. If I remember correctly, there were hardly any crossings this year during the month of July.

 

haggis

[Tootles]

yes, I agree with what you say but we felt that the times of the crossings were not only to fit in with tides (essential!) but also BW working hours. There are several dates when there are no crossings and if BW was prepared to have staff available to work early or late to see boats in and out, there could perhpas be more crossings. If I remember correctly, there were hardly any crossings this year during the month of July.

 

haggis

 

Agreed. Some friends of ours wanted 'off', to go up the L&L, but were told that no bookings were available. They asked to be put on the reserve list, but were told that it was pointless, as the reserve list was longer then the bookings list!

I also agree that the whole thing is badly managed. And I also strongly believe that very soon a disaster is in the offing. I cant think of any other river in the UK managed by BW, where a close check is not kept on the boats that cross. You could go out at Tarleton, and end up out to sea, without anybody knowing where you were, (nor caring). The Ribble can be a real nasty river, not just with the tides, but with the unchecked amount of fresh water that can come down it following rain. It reminds me somewhat of the Severn below Tewksbury, but at least their your movements are known about, and to some extent controlled.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Tootles

[haggis]

Agreed. Some friends of ours wanted 'off', to go up the L&L, but were told that no bookings were available. They asked to be put on the reserve list, but were told that it was pointless, as the reserve list was longer then the bookings list!

I also agree that the whole thing is badly managed. And I also strongly believe that very soon a disaster is in the offing. I cant think of any other river in the UK managed by BW, where a close check is not kept on the boats that cross. You could go out at Tarleton, and end up out to sea, without anybody knowing where you were, (nor caring). The Ribble can be a real nasty river, not just with the tides, but with the unchecked amount of fresh water that can come down it following rain. It reminds me somewhat of the Severn below Tewksbury, but at least their your movements are known about, and to some extent controlled.

 

Breaking down at any point on the crossing (apart from the first little bit of the Douglas where there is a boatyard) is a scarey thought. There is a lot of water out there, mosty running very fast and absolutely no where to go in an emergency. In theory with six boats crossing, you can look out for one another but it doesn't necessarily work like that. On both our crossings, particularly the way up, the boats very quickly spread out and if there had been an emergency, it is doubtful what help the other boats would have been, always assuming they had seen a boat in trouble. We are glad that we did the crossing (both ways) but we have no burning desire to do it again.

 

haggis

[Nine of Hearts]

Breaking down at any point on the crossing (apart from the first little bit of the Douglas where there is a boatyard) is a scarey thought. There is a lot of water out there, mosty running very fast and absolutely no where to go in an emergency. In theory with six boats crossing, you can look out for one another but it doesn't necessarily work like that. On both our crossings, particularly the way up, the boats very quickly spread out and if there had been an emergency, it is doubtful what help the other boats would have been, always assuming they had seen a boat in trouble. We are glad that we did the crossing (both ways) but we have no burning desire to do it again.

 

haggis

 

This is really , but as I didn't start it, can I ask what's the longest boat you can squeeze into the Rufford? The manual says 62', but as they're wide can you do the diagonal dodge and get a longer one in? (ooh, er, missus).

[Albatross]

Is it possible to get this reduced price on petrol as well ???

[NB Alnwick]

Is it possible to get this reduced price on petrol as well ???

 

Only on 'Red Petrol'

[County4x4]

yes, I agree with what you say but we felt that the times of the crossings were not only to fit in with tides (essential!) but also BW working hours. There are several dates when there are no crossings and if BW was prepared to have staff available to work early or late to see boats in and out, there could perhpas be more crossings.

 

haggis

 

I'm not sure about this as I don't really have anything to do with the Link operation. However, and I don't know if it's relevant, but the locky on the Glasson basin lock covers virtually all daylight high tides - so he can be down there working at five in the morning or earlier depending on tide times. Whether the same applies down on the link I couldn't say. I can ask though...

 

Andy

[furnessvale]

This is really , but as I didn't start it, can I ask what's the longest boat you can squeeze into the Rufford? The manual says 62', but as they're wide can you do the diagonal dodge and get a longer one in? (ooh, er, missus).

 

This was asked not long ago. I know that DANE got through the first lock and only just failed on the second and she is approx. 70ft.

No saying that the third lock isn't exactly 62ft long however which, allowing for diagonal behind the gate, would mean about 65ft max?

 

George ex nb Alton retired

Edited August 18, 2009 by furnessvale

[Tootles]

I'm not sure about this as I don't really have anything to do with the Link operation. However, and I don't know if it's relevant, but the locky on the Glasson basin lock covers virtually all daylight high tides - so he can be down there working at five in the morning or earlier depending on tide times. Whether the same applies down on the link I couldn't say. I can ask though...

 

Andy

 

The locky at Glasson takes bookings by the tide, to open the lock from the basin to the river. You can book passage not less then 24hrs in advance.

The link locks are worked by a crew of BW men, and only operate during normal working hours, whatever the tide.

On a personal note, 500 wild horses would not make me do that trip at night!!

[Iain_S]

My impression from looking at the link timetable earlier in the year was that it didn't run on neap tides, and that the direction the link operated depended on high tide time (Earlier high tide = Rufford Branch to Lancaster Canal, later high tide = Lanky to Rufford)

 

Iain

[Tootles]

My impression from looking at the link timetable earlier in the year was that it didn't run on neap tides, and that the direction the link operated depended on high tide time (Earlier high tide = Rufford Branch to Lancaster Canal, later high tide = Lanky to Rufford)

 

Iain

 

Yes Iain, I think that's correct. When you head North, (from Tarleton), your 'let out' of the lock as the tide is making in the Douglas. By the time you get to the Five Mile Perch on the Ribble, your then heading upstream towards the link, (and Preston Docks), against the receding tide, plus whatever fresh water is coming down, so it's all 'uphill', so to speak.

On the other hand, heading South, from the link, you travel down on the slack, then the outgoing tide. If your a quick boat, you will arrive at Tarleton well before a level can be made for you to get in. Bit of a juggling act really.

[Iain_S]

Yes Iain, I think that's correct. When you head North, (from Tarleton), your 'let out' of the lock as the tide is making in the Douglas. By the time you get to the Five Mile Perch on the Ribble, your then heading upstream towards the link, (and Preston Docks), against the receding tide, plus whatever fresh water is coming down, so it's all 'uphill', so to speak.

On the other hand, heading South, from the link, you travel down on the slack, then the outgoing tide. If your a quick boat, you will arrive at Tarleton well before a level can be made for you to get in. Bit of a juggling act really.

 

When we went South, we went onto the Ribble with the tide rising and flowing so fast that the boat in front of us went backwards up the Ribble for a bit as he turned )

 

When we got to Tarleton, we had to wait for half an hour or so until the tide dropped far enough to get the flood gates open, and then all the boats got through the lock on the level. I think it was a Spring tide, though.

Iain

 

P.S. Better add

Edited August 18, 2009 by Iain_S

[christiaan]

Does anyone know if this is still the same with the 60/40 split? Is there a list of marinas that operate by accepting your own decleration? I l live on a wide beam that stays put so only use it for heating and not water but the marina insist on 60/40 even though I haven't moved in 2 years I've had the boat.

any info welcomed.