TWT Planning a bonfire!

[Tim Lewis]

I notice from the Museums Journal that The Waterways Trust have put

the following boats up for disposal.

 

Cathead - Crane Barge (1930)

 

Sapphire - Wooden Double ended BCN day boat

 

Box boat 260 - a NCB Boat

 

Aspull - Leeds & Liverpool Ice boat (c1900)

 

Ethel - West Country Keel, Bow & Stern Ends Only (c1952)

 

Formalhaut - Narrowboat, Bow & Stern sections only (c1953)

 

Malta - Motor Narrow boat, Bow Only (c1943)

 

Minstral - Clinker built dinghy (c1930)

 

Parry II - BCN Ice boat

 

Tube boat 22 - BCN day boat

 

Marple - Icebreaker

 

Notices the the MJ are the first part of a process that registered

museums have to go through to dispose of acceessioned items. No

response means that they will be able to do as they wish with them!

 

Tim

Edited January 5, 2009 by Tim Lewis

[carlt]

Does this mean Gwendoline (the other keel) has had a reprieve, or has she already gone?

 

Interesting that "Marple" has gone from Category A:-

 

"Boats, which have a long-term future, accessioned in the collection of the National Waterways Museum. These are important vessels nationally, which tell the story of the history and development of Britain’s inland waterways"

 

To Category C:

 

"Boats, or parts of boats, which no longer have a place in the collection, and which will be carefully recorded and

then disposed of."

 

Though I believe Category C should read "Boats that aren't pretty enough, or ones we've neglected so much that they're just piles of rotten wood, now."

[billh]

I notice from the Museums Journal that The Waterways Trust have put

the following boats up for disposal.

 

Cathead - Crane Barge (1930)

 

Sapphire - Wooden Double ended BCN day boat

 

Box boat 260 - a NCB Boat

 

Aspull - Leeds & Liverpool Ice boat (c1900)

 

Ethel - West Country Keel, Bow & Stern Ends Only (c1952)

 

Formalhaut - Narrowboat, Bow & Stern sections only (c1953)

 

Malta - Motor Narrow boat, Bow Only (c1943)

 

Minstral - Clinker built dinghy (c1930)

 

Parry II - BCN Ice boat

 

Tube boat 22 - BCN day boat

 

Marple - Icebreaker

 

Notices the the MJ are the first part of a process that registered

museums have to go through to dispose of acceessioned items. No

response means that they will be able to do as they wish with them!

 

Tim

The ice breaker Marple is one of seven rivetted iron horse drawn ice breakers built by the MS&L Railway at Gorton Manchester in the 1860's for the Ashton , Peak Forest and Macclesfield Canals. Latterly in use as a floating brew hut by BW on the Macc it had not been used as an ice breaker since before WW2. Last time I saw it , it was in reasonable condition with what appeared to be its original iron rudder & tiller.

Allegedly, there is another of the seven , name unknown, buried in the filled in Stockport Branch at Gorton. There are vague plans afoot to excavate it.

If necessary, a home could be found for Marple on the Ashton Canal alongside the other local survivors from Gorton, Joel & Maria( originally built at Jink's at Marple Top in 1854, but maintained at Gorton for many years.)

[AMModels]

if getting rid of those boats mean they will spend money on others such as Merope, and Chiltern I think it is sitting on the bank rotting then as long as they find homes for them maybe theyre doing the right thing in the long run. However if theyre going to let the boats continue to rot as they have done for the past 10 or so years then they should be the guys on said bonfire!!!

[carlt]

if getting rid of those boats mean they will spend money on others such as Merope, and Chiltern I think it is sitting on the bank rotting then as long as they find homes for them maybe theyre doing the right thing in the long run.

The list is the category C boats, that is the boats that they intend skipping.

 

It is the Cat B boats which are looking for new homes:

Speedwell 1925 River Wey dumb barge 74ft

chalk barge 1948 River Arun wooden barge 58ft

Basuto 1902 Forth & Clyde steel puffer 68ft

Cuddington 1948 Weaver ICI river / estuary craft 102ft

Phoebe c1900 BCN iron day boat 70ft

Aries 1935 wooden motor narrowboat 72ft

Marsden early C20 iceboat / maintenance boat

Whaley Bridge c1900 iron iceboat

Perseverence 1934 steel steam dregder 70ft

Marlyn c1940 wooden Mersey gig-boat /harbour launch 24ft

Pelican 1956 MSC steel tug/maintenance boat 71ft, with crane

reed punt c1930 wooden reed punt

weedcutter 1956 powered weed cutting launch

Shirley c1930 pleasure hire craft

Spindrift III 1910 ex-navy steam launch converted c1950 to pleasure boat

concrete lighter 1944 ferro-concrete lighter

[Timleech]

The list is the category C boats, that is the boats that they intend skipping.

 

It is the Cat B boats which are looking for new homes:

Speedwell 1925 River Wey dumb barge 74ft

chalk barge 1948 River Arun wooden barge 58ft

Basuto 1902 Forth & Clyde steel puffer 68ft

Cuddington 1948 Weaver ICI river / estuary craft 102ft

Phoebe c1900 BCN iron day boat 70ft

Aries 1935 wooden motor narrowboat 72ft

Marsden early C20 iceboat / maintenance boat

Whaley Bridge c1900 iron iceboat

Perseverence 1934 steel steam dregder 70ft

Marlyn c1940 wooden Mersey gig-boat /harbour launch 24ft

Pelican 1956 MSC steel tug/maintenance boat 71ft, with crane

reed punt c1930 wooden reed punt

weedcutter 1956 powered weed cutting launch

Shirley c1930 pleasure hire craft

Spindrift III 1910 ex-navy steam launch converted c1950 to pleasure boat

concrete lighter 1944 ferro-concrete lighter

 

Ah, the Phoebe

 

One of five 'wrecks' bought from BW by Peter Froud in, I suppose, about 1971 or 72.

Along with an " 'ot 'oler" cut down as a tunnel boat, used for a while for ferrying and storing materials for the dry-dock.

Originally un-named, I christened them 'Gladys' and 'Phoebe' on the suggestion of Peter Shrubsall (who started the Boat & Butty co in Runcorn), mainly as a joke to tease Dave Massey (who started the Colliery NB co) that they were to be his new hotel boat pair, and painted the names very roughly with white primer and a 1" brush. The names seemed to stick!

 

Eventually Peter Froud gave Phoebe to the boat museum (maybe I should ask for it back ), and Gladys was given to John Jinks to tow away and make what he could from it. I believe he got 50 quid for it (it was very rough, Phoebe was rather better at the time), and it found its way back to the BCN. I've been tripping over a photo for weeks, which someone gave me years ago to show Gladys back in her home environment, but of course now I want it it's nowhere to be seen.

 

Tim

Edited January 6, 2009 by Timleech

[AMModels]

Is there any record of how bad a condition the boats are in?

[carlt]

There are photos of Ethel here on Gary's West Country Keel thread and also one of Gwendoline (which isn't mentioned on Tim's disposal list but features on mine).

 

Clicky

 

Ethel looks pretty well gone but, with bows and stern intact, could still be a pattern, worth saving.

 

I think the Gwendoline shot is older (perhaps Gary could confirm) but she definitely looks do-able, in that photo.

 

 

 

What's interesting is that the boats that were on the NHRV, on the Cat C list, have now been removed.

 

It seems a shame that it is so easy to write off historically important artefacts and erase their very existence from the register, presumably, set up to help fight such actions.

[Pluto]

Ethel looks pretty well gone but, with bows and stern intact, could still be a pattern, worth saving.

 

I think the Gwendoline shot is older (perhaps Gary could confirm) but she definitely looks do-able, in that photo.

 

 

 

I looked after the Yorkshire end when Gwendoline was moved to Ellesmere Port. She had been a residential boat at Shipley for some years and had sunk. On raising, her frames were not too bad, though there were some poor planks. Quite a lot of work would be needed to return her to good condition. One of the problems with the ex-Hargreaves wooden west-country keels was that most were built after the war when timber quality was poor, and consequently they tended to rot when not maintained regularly. Unlike wooden narrow boats, which can be rebuilt by someone with quite limited knowledge, wide boats require a high standard of skill to repair them effectively. Having worked on both, I would feel quite competent working on a narrow boat, but not on a wide boat, even though I owned and lived on one for five years.

 

There are some interesting differences between the way the various wide barges and narrow boats are built, reflecting local traditions. I did write an article some years ago for Waterways Journal which I may update and put onto my web pages.

[carlt]

Yes the keels were far more "boat-like" in construction, than narrowboats.

 

I'd be very interested in reading the article and your web pages, in general, if you could provide a link.

[AMModels]

as would I, Id also like to extend an invitation to my forum for historical boats.

[estwdjhn]

How many of these are semi-derelict and under theat, against boats in fair condition which they are trying to sell in order to raise funds - or does this list consist entirely of "last chance saloon" boats?

 

At least one of those boats - the concrete barge - surely needs very little work(unless I'm much mistaken), so why do they want rid - I presume it has little or no value, but I wasn't aware that they were short on space.

Edited January 7, 2009 by estwdjhn

[carlt]

How many of these are semi-derelict and under theat, against boats in fair condition which they are trying to sell in order to raise funds - or does this list consist entirely of "last chance saloon" boats?

 

At least one of those boats - the concrete barge - surely needs very little work(unless I'm much mistaken), so why do they want rid - I presume it has little or no value, but I wasn't aware that they were short on space.

The list Tim posted are semi derelict boats that the museum doesn't feel are worth saving.

 

None on the Cat C list are regarded as worth seeking new homes for (unlike the Cat B list, which I posted).

 

The fact that some of these boats have great historical importance makes their condition, or monetary value, irrelevant.

 

I believe they want rid because:

 

A) They are underfunded and big ugly boats that are in desperate need of maintenence don't attract people into their money spinning cafes and

 

Yes they've got loads of space but I honestly don't think they want it, or the responsibility for it.

 

Like Gloucester, when happier times return, EP will be great for redevelopment and a quaint, small, museum with a few shiny exhibits will make a nice centrepiece.

Edited January 7, 2009 by carlt

[AMModels]

Is Chiltern on the A list and if so wtf is the use of any lists when they allow the top ranked boats to rot away on land while they build cafes and other such piffle!

 

Are TWT a public funded body? Are they electable? Are they accountable? Who to if so?

[carlt]

This is the list I've got, though it's quite old:

Sorry about the layout, I'll clean it up tomorrow.

 

Group A boats Categories followed by 'i' indicate the boat is inside

wide boats:- Position Date built Type of boat Site

A1 Cedar 32 1878 decked-over scow EP

A1 Mossdale 11 ? 1860s wooden Mersey flat 72ft EP

A1 Scorpio 31 1890s Leeds & Liverpool wooden dumb barge (long) 70ft EP

wide boats - working pairs:-

A1 Bacup 9 1950 L&L steel short boat 62ft EP

A1 George 30 1910 L&L wooden horsedrawn barge 62ft EP

A1 Sabrina 5 3 1946 steel dumb lighter Gl

A1 Severn Progress 4 1931 Severn tug Gl

A2 Bantam II 21 1956 steel tug 26ft (not a wide boat but paired with wide boats) EP

A3 Bigmere 2 1948 steel dumb barge 71ft EP

 

narrowboats - horsedrawn:-

 

A2 Gifford 1926 horsedrawn wooden narrowboat (bulk liquids tanker) 70ft EP

A2i Friendship 1924 horsedrawn wooden narrowboat EP

 

narrowboats:-

 

A1 Merope 54 1936 Grand Union wooden motor 71ft EP

A1 tube boat 39 35 1920s wooden Joey day boat 70ft, horse or tug-drawn EP

A2 Wye 8 1959 steel River Class butty 70ft Gl

A2 May 1928 LMS 'station boat', unpowered SB

A3 Centaur 16 c1890 composite narrow boat, unpowered 70ft EP

A3 Chiltern 44 1946 wooden motor narrowboat 'Josher' 70ft EP

A3 Mendip 13 1948 Composite narrowboat EP

A3 Shad 37 1936 composite motor narrowboat EP

 

narrowboats working pair:-

 

A1 Ilkeston 20 1912 horsedrawn, iron-composite narrowboat EP

A3 Ferret 27 1926 motor narrowboat 72ft, bolinder engine EP

A1 Oak 40 1934 iron motor narrowboat 70ft Gl

A1 Northwich 14 1898 horsedrawn Josher composite narrowboat 70ft Gl

A1 Sculptor 17 1935 motor narrowboat SB

A1 Merak 53 1936 Grand Union wooden butty 71ft SB

 

early coal boats:-

 

A1 box boat 337 10 ? 1950 wooden container boat 70ft - coal EP

A2i starvationer C19 wooden mine boat; Worsley mines EP

concrete boat:-

A1 concrete barge 22 1944 ferro-concrete lighter EP

A2 concrete narrowboat 5 1918 reinforced concrete day boat Gl

 

tugs:-

 

A1 Manchester 29 1874 steam tug 60ft; Bridgewater / MSC EP

Bantam II included with the working pairs

 

wide boats

 

A2 Worcester 1912 iron tunnel tug 45ft EP

A2 Stratford 52 c1930 maintenance boat EP

A2i Walsall ? 1961 Bantam tug Gl

A3 Aleida 6 ? 1919 iron tug 33ft EP

A3 Beeston 43 1946 steel tug 25ft EP

A3 Birchills ? 1957 BCN tug EP

 

iceboats:-

 

A1 Marbury 12 c1900 horsedrawn wooden iceboat 41ft EP

A1 Marple 48 c1850 iron iceboat 27ft Gl

A2i Wappenshall iceboat EP

 

National Inland Waterways Collection Note: This list is still subject to change

 

Boats, which have a long-term future, accessioned in the collection of the National Waterways Museum. These

are important vessels nationally, which tell the story of the history and development of Britain’s inland

waterways:-

 

A1 - Boats whose preservation, restoration and interpretation is proposed to be funded through a single strategic

bid to the Heritage Lottery Fund.

 

A2 - Boats which are not currently in need of major funding, and which can be preserved through normal day-to-day

conservation and maintenance.

 

A3 - Other nationally important boats that we need to find other funding/support for - retain in collection.

Boats whose preservation and restoration could be suitable projects for individual sponsorship or other separate

sources of funding.

The future preservation of these boats lies in the curatorial assistance from other organisations including loans

or, if necessary, transfers.

 

Category A

 

Category B

 

Category C Boats, or parts of boats, which no longer have a place in the collection, and which will be carefully recorded and

then disposed of.

 

Group A boats Categories followed by 'i' indicate the boat is inside

wide boats:- Position Date built Type of boat Site

 

dredgers:-

A1 dredger GD101 19 1954 motor grab dredger 48ft EP

A1 dredger no.4 1925 steam ladder bucket dredger 83ft Gl

A2 dredger cog boat 36 ?1925 clinker-built workboat 15ft Gl

 

other maintenance / support craft:-

A2i weedcutter 1954 powered weed cutting launch EP

A3 Alexandra 41 c1882 iron inspection launch EP

 

pleasure craft:-

A1 Morna 34 1961 Water Miss class hire boat EP

A2i Amaryllis 1954 Taylor's clinker canal pleasure boat EP

A2i Bluebelle 1965 converted from 1945 Bailey bridge pontoon EP

 

(not yet allocated to type groups):-

A2i Lily Wooden Leeds and Liverpool transom stern short boat EP

 

(not yet allocated to type groups):-

A2 Hesketh 28 1960 Steel work flat Gl

A2i Bluebird 1922 Bevis built pleasure launch Gl

 

Group B boats

 

wide boats:- Position Date built Type of boat Site

Speedwell 25 1925 River Wey dumb barge 74ft EP

chalk barge 45 1948 River Arun wooden barge 58ft EP

 

estuarial / river / coastal:-

Basuto 1 1902 Forth & Clyde steel puffer 68ft EP

Cuddington 18 1948 Weaver ICI river / estuary craft 102ft EP

 

narrowboats - horsedrawn:-

Phoebe 24 c1900 BCN iron day boat 70ft, originally horsedrawn EP

 

narrowboats:-

Aries 46 1935 wooden motor narrowboat 72ft EP

 

iceboats:-

Marsden 51 early C20 iceboat / maintenance boat EP

Whaley Bridge 47 c1900 iron iceboat EP

 

dredgers:

Perseverence 15 1934 steel steam dregder 70ft EP

 

other maintenance / support craft:-

Marlyn 38 c1940 wooden Mersey gig-boat / harbour launch 24ft EP

Pelican 23 1956 MSC steel tug/maintenance boat 71ft, with crane EP

reed punt 39 c1930 wooden reed punt EP

weedcutter 33 1956 powered weed cutting launch Gl

 

pleasure craft:-

Shirley 49 c1930 pleasure hire craft EP

Spindrift III 55 1910 ex-navy steam launch converted c1950 to pleasure boat Gl

 

concrete boats:-

concrete lighter 7 1944 ferro-concrete lighter Gl

 

(not yet allocated to type groups):-

 

Ulla 1952 Conwy River salmon fishing boat EP

Kennet Tug 36ft Gl

 

 

Group C Boats:

Position Date built Type of boat Site

cathead 50 c1930 raft with cathead on it EP

Gwendoline 26 1953 wooden west country keel EP

Sapphire 42 wooden double ended BCN day boat EP

box boat 260 NCB box boat EP

Aspull c1900 Leeds and Liverpool ice boat EP

Ethel 1952 wooden west country keel EP

Fomalhaut 1935 Small Ricky EP

Malta 1943 Nursers wooden motor boat EP

Minstral c1930 clinker built dinghy EP

Parry II 1898 wooden BCN ice boat EP

tube boat 22 1922 double ended wooden BCN day boat EP

Edited January 7, 2009 by carlt

[AMModels]

Thanks Carl, are the category B boats the ones they have no intention of spending money on in any way shape or form and in a few years will become cat C boats?

[carlt]

Thanks Carl, are the category B boats the ones they have no intention of spending money on in any way shape or form and in a few years will become cat C boats?

I imagine, if there are no takers, for them, then they'll be relegated quicker than that!

[Pluto]

Yes the keels were far more "boat-like" in construction, than narrowboats.

 

I'd be very interested in reading the article and your web pages, in general, if you could provide a link.

 

 

The article looks at the origins of the narrow boat by comparing the variations in construction technique around the country and is at http://www.mikeclarke.myzen.co.uk/narrowboat%20origins.html. You should find a link to the rest of my site which includes a variety of other articles, mainly canal-related.

 

Regards

[Laurence Hogg]

I notice from the Museums Journal that The Waterways Trust have put

the following boats up for disposal.

 

Cathead - Crane Barge (1930)

 

Sapphire - Wooden Double ended BCN day boat

 

Box boat 260 - a NCB Boat

 

Aspull - Leeds & Liverpool Ice boat (c1900)

 

Ethel - West Country Keel, Bow & Stern Ends Only (c1952)

 

Formalhaut - Narrowboat, Bow & Stern sections only (c1953)

 

Malta - Motor Narrow boat, Bow Only (c1943)

 

Minstral - Clinker built dinghy (c1930)

 

Parry II - BCN Ice boat

 

Tube boat 22 - BCN day boat

 

Marple - Icebreaker

 

Notices the the MJ are the first part of a process that registered

museums have to go through to dispose of acceessioned items. No

response means that they will be able to do as they wish with them!

 

Tim

 

The expert eyes who assessed these boats are questionable. Formalhaut built in 1953, I think not, 1935 would be more appropriate. Strange how interesting rare craft like box boats are unwanted, likewise joey boats, once the ome of the most numerous of any type, now down to a handful of wooden examples. Why too a nurser bow? Irrespective of the condition, preservation of the remains would at least retain a true example and shape, all they need to do is to conserve the wood as is and fibreglass over the outside. Where now would you see a Sephtons bow if" Freiendship" had been rebuilt? We have "Saturn", "Raymond", "Gifford" etc in nice order - fine but they aren't original, effectively just copies.

[estwdjhn]

I could be wrong, but I imagine the expert eyes asessment went as follows:

 

1) Its it pretty for the uninnitiated general public

 

2) If its indoors, do we want the space.

 

3) Is it an "eyesore" that might reduce the cafe earnings

 

Right, we'll scrap it then.

 

I can recall climbing over what I'm pretty sure were the sad remains of Ethel as a kid on a visit there (probably in the early 90's years ago) - I seem to recall a boat that looked like her and in about the same state. Doubless these-days kids aren't allowed to get within a 100 yards of a boat, incase they sue.

 

Out of interest, what are the crieria for "b list" boats to get new homes - do they want money for them, do they want assurances as to the way the boat will be treated/used, are they only allowed to pass boats on to other museams, or could they end up in the hands of private individuals...

Edited January 8, 2009 by estwdjhn

[magpie patrick]

To be honest, having just seen the pictures of Ethel, the museum management should be shot for not admitting a bit earlier that they couldn't preserve her so that someone else could have a go. I recall the fanfare when she arrived at EP, and the journey down the MSC to get her there.

[global gypsy]

Out of interest, what are the crieria for "b list" boats to get new homes - do they want money for them, do they want assurances as to the way the boat will be treated/used, are they only allowed to pass boats on to other museams, or could they end up in the hands of private individuals...

 

Do they make a home visit to satisfy themselves that the boat will be looked after properly?

 

 

 

edit: fat fingers!

Edited January 8, 2009 by global gypsy

[carlt]

Do they make a home visit to satisfy themselves that the boat will be looked after properly?

They were offered to groups and charities but not, as far as I am aware, private individuals.

 

The problem is the fashionable boats will be cherry picked and the, possibly, more important, but not as pretty or useful ones will end up scrapped.

[Phil Speight]

Is there any record of how bad a condition the boats are in?

Bloody bad - believe me - I used to live in the Museum. Most if not all the category C boats are scrap - some of the group B ones aren`t much better . Strangely though Aries , a Ricky motor, didn`t belong to the museum when I was there,neither did Birchills - both were in private hands. Too many years of absolute and utter neglect. Please folks, if you want an old boat - look elsewhere unless you have bottomless pockets. The ends of Ethel are well worth keeping , and the trust really should be the ones keeping them. There are now no West Country Keels left - unless I`m mistaken , and I hope I am. Their construction goes back to Viking boat design, not the longships ( although see the way the planking rises to meet the stem ) but the wide beam cargo ships. They ( the Vikings ) first established boat building on the Humber the tradition and the basic design remained until Ethel`s day. History in the loosing because it`s custodians don`t actually care.

Phil

 

Do they make a home visit to satisfy themselves that the boat will be looked after properly?

 

 

 

edit: fat fingers!

By " looked after" you really ought to mean considerably restored. It`s your bank balance they`ll be checking.

Phil

Edited January 8, 2009 by Phil Speight

[carlt]

Hi Phil

I keep asking the question but cannot find an answer.

 

I don't suppose you know what happened to Gwendoline, or Dorothy Pax?