Which is the best charger?

[riiggs]

I am thinking about buying one of these 50A battery chargers to charge my 360Ah bank 3x120Ah and 1x50Ah starter battery.I will be using a makita G1700i generator(1.65kVA) to power it.

I can buy the sterling 1250CED for £330 inc p+p or the Victron Centaur for £300 inc p+p.Which one of these do you think would be best or would you recemoned a differnt type?Also do you know if there is a cheaper place to buy these chargers?

Thanks,Riiggs.

[chris w]

I'm not aware that the Victron Centaur is available in a 50A version. I believe it's available in a 40A or 60A version and for £300 it's probably the 40A version you have selected.

 

Technically, the only real difference between them is that, after the bulk stage, the Victron carries out a fixed 4 hour absorption stage before dropping to float voltage whereas the Sterling calculates the absorption time needed using adaptive software based on the condition of the battery bank at the time.

 

Thus the Sterling may decide an hour is enough if the batteries are close to fully charged or may decide 6 hours is necessary if they are heavily discharged or anywhere inbetween or more depending on the battery condition. The Victron, on the other hand, will always charge them for 4 hours regardless of their state of charge which is essentially therefore a compromise. The Sterling also has a 10 day automatic desulphation cycle. ie: if the batteries are on float for 10 days, the charger will reset automatically and then go through its bulk, absorption, float cycle to help prevent sulphation of the batteries.

 

The Sterling also has an optional remote control panel display available which shows volts, current, mode (viz: bulk, absorption time or float), case temperature and battery temperature. The remote though is about another £100.

 

Chris

Edited March 4, 2008 by chris w

[blackrose]

I'm not aware that the Victron Centaur is available in a 50A version. I believe it's available in a 40A or 60A version and for £300 it's probably the 40A version you have selected.

 

Technically, the only real difference between them is that, after the bulk stage, the Victron carries out a fixed 4 hour absorption stage before dropping to float voltage whereas the Sterling calculates the absorption time needed using adaptive software based on the condition of the battery bank at the time.

 

Thus the Sterling may decide an hour is enough if the batteries are close to fully charged or may decide 6 hours is necessary if they are heavily discharged or anywhere inbetween or more depending on the battery condition. The Victron, on the other hand, will always charge them for 4 hours regardless of their state of charge which is essentially therefore a compromise. The Sterling also has a 10 day automatic desulphation cycle. ie: if the batteries are on float for 10 days, the charger will reset automatically and then go through its bulk, absorption, float cycle to help prevent sulphation of the batteries.

 

The Sterling also has an optional remote control panel display available which shows volts, current, mode (viz: bulk, absorption time or float), case temperature and battery temperature. The remote though is about another £100.

 

Chris

 

Yes, I looked into the Centaur quite a while ago and was surprised to find it did not have true adaptive charging.

 

I think the price you quoted is about the best you'll get (unless like Chris you manage to negotiate discounts from Sterling direct!)

The place I usually use is very good but once you add postage it's a few quid more. http://www.yachtbits.com/sterling_power/st...ry_chargers.php

Edited March 4, 2008 by blackrose

[Broughton 2]

Yes, I looked into the Centaur quite a while ago and was surprised to find it did not have true adaptive charging.

 

I think the price you quoted is about the best you'll get (unless like Chris you manage to negotiate discounts from Sterling direct!)

The place I usually use is very good but once you add postage it's a few quid more. http://www.yachtbits.com/sterling_power/st...ry_chargers.php

 

 

You might want to try Compass Watersports at www.compass24.com, I recently bought a Sterling 1240 charger for £224 inc post.

[stuart]

You might want to try Compass Watersports at www.compass24.com, I recently bought a Sterling 1240 charger for £224 inc post.

 

find out when Midland Chandlers are having their "freaky friday" 20% off days again. There should be one in March.

[riiggs]

I'm not aware that the Victron Centaur is available in a 50A version. I believe it's available in a 40A or 60A version and for £300 it's probably the 40A version you have selected.

 

Technically, the only real difference between them is that, after the bulk stage, the Victron carries out a fixed 4 hour absorption stage before dropping to float voltage whereas the Sterling calculates the absorption time needed using adaptive software based on the condition of the battery bank at the time.

 

Thus the Sterling may decide an hour is enough if the batteries are close to fully charged or may decide 6 hours is necessary if they are heavily discharged or anywhere inbetween or more depending on the battery condition. The Victron, on the other hand, will always charge them for 4 hours regardless of their state of charge which is essentially therefore a compromise. The Sterling also has a 10 day automatic desulphation cycle. ie: if the batteries are on float for 10 days, the charger will reset automatically and then go through its bulk, absorption, float cycle to help prevent sulphation of the batteries.

 

The Sterling also has an optional remote control panel display available which shows volts, current, mode (viz: bulk, absorption time or float), case temperature and battery temperature. The remote though is about another £100.

 

Chris

 

Thanks chris

The victron do sell a 50A charger but from what you have said the sterling seems like a better buy.I think the victron pheonix version will do the same job as the sterling with a builtin computer but it costs £400 so I think i will go for the sterling.

Thank you all for your replies ill have to keep an eye on Midland Chandlers and see if i can get a good deal.

[tomsk]

Thanks chris

The victron do sell a 50A charger but from what you have said the sterling seems like a better buy.I think the victron pheonix version will do the same job as the sterling with a builtin computer but it costs £400 so I think i will go for the sterling.

Thank you all for your replies ill have to keep an eye on Midland Chandlers and see if i can get a good deal.

 

Another commision earned

[blackrose]

You might want to try Compass Watersports at www.compass24.com, I recently bought a Sterling 1240 charger for £224 inc post.

 

That's an extremely good price (about £40 cheaper than anywhere else!), but I just checked that site and I can only find the 12/30 and it's £229.95 + £6.50 shipping to UK.

Edited March 4, 2008 by blackrose

[Gibbo]

Adaptive charging does not work.

 

The idea is fundamentally flawed.

 

This isn't speculation. Several knowledgable owners of adaptive charging Victron Combis have switched it off because they work better without it.

 

I also know of a few who have switched off adaptive charging on alternator controllers because they work better without it.

 

I repeat, the idea is fundamentally flawed.

 

I know one person at least will argue with this so I'll save replying later.... You're wrong

 

Gibbo

[blackrose]

Adaptive charging does not work.

 

The idea is fundamentally flawed.

 

This isn't speculation. Several knowledgable owners of adaptive charging Victron Combis have switched it off because they work better without it.

 

I also know of a few who have switched off adaptive charging on alternator controllers because they work better without it.

 

I repeat, the idea is fundamentally flawed.

 

I know one person at least will argue with this so I'll save replying later.... You're wrong

 

Gibbo

 

You know you're going to have to elaborate Gibbo...

 

My Sterling charger is supposed to have adaptive charging and it seems to work fine. What's so fundamentally flawed about it exactly?

Edited March 4, 2008 by blackrose

[Gibbo]

You know you're going to have to elaborate Gibbo...

 

My Sterling charger is supposed to have adaptive charging and it seems to work fine, so what's flawed about it exactly?

 

Try to clarify in your own head what adaptive charging does and you will realise it can't work.

 

Ok.... I'll save you the trouble..........

 

The idea is that if a battery is deeply discharged then it will take the charger a long time to finish the bulk stage and go onto the acceptance stage. Adaptive charging keeps track of how long the bulk stage lasted, and adjusts the acceptance cycle accordingly. The idea being that if the bulk stage lasted a long time then the battery was deeply discharged so it runs a longer acceptance cycle.

 

Now imagine that if the battery was only very slightly discharged, the bulk stage will last just a few minutes, the acceptance cycle will be run for a very short time.

 

You get the idea?

 

Now look at it from a different point of view.....

 

A battery bank of size X, discharged to 50% is put on the charger. The bulk stage lasts (say) 2 hours. The charger clocks this and decides a 3 hour acceptance cycle is correct.

 

Now remove half the batteries so you have a battery bank of size 0.5X - discharge it to 50% and put it on the same charger. The bulk stage will last roughly half as long (say 1 hour). The charger will clock this and the acceptance cycle will be shorter than in the first example (say 1.5 hours).

 

This seems like sense. In actual fact it is exactly the opposite of what is required. A battery brought up to the acceptance stage quickly (in this case the charger is twice the size in relation to the battery bank size because half the batteries were removed) has received more surface charge and in actual fact requires a LONGER acceptance cycle NOT a shorter one.

 

Another way of looking at is this.....

 

Discharge a 100 Ahr battery to 50%. Now put a 1000 amp charger on it. The voltage will instantly rise to the acceptance voltage. The charger will clock this and run an extremely short acceptance cycle. Say 15 minutes. That battery is still half flat.

 

The only way adaptive charging can work is if the charger knows the size of the battery bank. Which the Sterling charger does not.

 

In any even5t, most charger manufacturers have finally realised that acceptance cycles have been FAR too short in the past. Many were running for between 1 and 3 hours. 8 to 20 hours is more realistic in order to charge the batteries fully.

 

Gibbo

[magnetman]

I think using a multistage charger on a generator may be a fundamentally pointless thing to do unless you run the thing for a full 'cycle' each time.

[Gibbo]

I think using a multistage charger on a generator may be a fundamentally pointless thing to do unless you run the thing for a full 'cycle' each time.

 

I think you're fundamentally right.

 

Gibbo

[Yoda]

I'm not sure the idea is fundamentally flawed but certainly the fact that the charger does not know the battery capacity ie, how many, is the flaw. It cannot possibly calculate the charge needed. It will cause the loss of the batteries sooner rather than later.

[Gibbo]

I'm not sure the idea is fundamentally flawed but certainly the fact that the charger does not know the battery capacity ie, how many, is the flaw. It cannot possibly calculate the charge needed. It will cause the loss of the batteries sooner rather than later.

 

That's my whole point. Unless the charger knows the size of the battery bank (which it doesn't) the idea can never work. The idea itself is fundamentally flawed.

 

Gibbo

[blackrose]

I think using a multistage charger on a generator may be a fundamentally pointless thing to do unless you run the thing for a full 'cycle' each time.

As long as you have a big enough output charger so that the full cycle isn't too long & give yourself enough time (and fuel) what's the problem? I was running a 30amp multistage charger last summer from my generator and getting a full cycle in about 5 hours (after 3 days of not charging), and it was fine. Anyway, what's the alternative? Is it really any better to run a single stage automotive type charger from a generator?

 

That's my whole point. Unless the charger knows the size of the battery bank (which it doesn't) the idea can never work. The idea itself is fundamentally flawed.Gibbo

So why do expensive Victron chargers bother to include this feature? Edited March 4, 2008 by blackrose

[Broughton 2]

That's an extremely good price (about £40 cheaper than anywhere else!), but I just checked that site and I can only find the 12/30 and it's £229.95 + £6.50 shipping to UK.

 

 

Get onto Compass mailing list to receive time-to-time discount offers. At same time I bought the Charger I also bought a Stirling 160 Amp Alternator to Battery Charger, AB12160, for £202 (thank god I'm nearing the end of the major fitting-out costs). I was in error about the postage though, they charged £6.50 for both (not each).

 

Link to the 40 Amp charger:- http://www.compass24.com/watersports/abnet...pl?ARTNR=986212

 

Current price can be had with 10% discount, I believe.

 

Alan

[chris w]

Another way of looking at is this.....

 

Discharge a 100 Ahr battery to 50%. Now put a 1000 amp charger on it. The voltage will instantly rise to the acceptance voltage. The charger will clock this and run an extremely short acceptance cycle. Say 15 minutes. That battery is still half flat.

 

Gibbo

 

Gibbo

 

In previous posts (on alternator controllers) you argued against them because you stated that, after the bulk stage, the battery will be 90% charged and therefore an absorption stage has no value. (Hence your justifying a simple diode addition to lift the charge voltage).

 

Now you are stating, in arguing against adaptive charging, that after the bulk stage, the battery will still be 50% discharged.

 

Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

 

Chris

[riiggs]

Now I dont know what to think!!!!

Gibbo do you think i should buy the cheaper victron charger rather than the sterling?

Am I doing the right thing buying a multistage charger to run off my generator or not?I was hoping to only run the generator for an hour or two each day to charge my batteries.I have a 360Ah bank and ill probably use about 40-50Ahs per day maybe less.Would I be able to keep them fully charged with a 50A victron or sterling?

[Barno Kaison-Flower]

I am thinking that most people do not have enough batteries for their personal use. Maybe five or six connected will produce the reserve required for this power hungry lot.

[Chris Pink]

I am thinking that most people do not have enough batteries for their personal use. Maybe five or six connected will produce the reserve required for this power hungry lot.

 

Well, power out = power in + efficiency losses so it makes no odds really, big battery bank, longer less frequent charging, small battery bank, shorter more frequent charging.

 

Someone will now pop up with a outline of Peukert's theorem.

[bottle]

Bigger bank less discharge per battery compared to smaller bank. (assuming same consumption)

 

Batteries will last longer (lifetime)

 

So I have been told

[blackrose]

Now I dont know what to think!!!!

Gibbo do you think i should buy the cheaper victron charger rather than the sterling?

Am I doing the right thing buying a multistage charger to run off my generator or not?I was hoping to only run the generator for an hour or two each day to charge my batteries.I have a 360Ah bank and ill probably use about 40-50Ahs per day maybe less.Would I be able to keep them fully charged with a 50A victron or sterling?

 

I'm not knowledgeable enough to know the whether adaptive charging is flawed or not but it's kept my batteries in top condition for a few years. However, the idea that running a multistage charger from a generator is a waste of time seems daft to me. Yes, if you don't complete a full charge cycle it isn't that great for your batteries, but surely it's no worse than running a cheap single stage charger from a generator and not getting the batteries fully charged either, which is just as likely. As I said earlier - what's the alternative?

 

I was running a Honda EU10i power a Sterling Pro-digital 30 amp charger last summer and completing a full charge cycle after about 5 hours. I did that every 3 days or so. Depending on your power consumption, if you're charging everyday then you might complete the charge cycle in an hour or two.

[Gibbo]

GibboIn previous posts (on alternator controllers) you argued against them because you stated that, after the bulk stage, the battery will be 90% charged and therefore an absorption stage has no value.

I never said anything of the sort. What I *may* have said *could* have been that after the bulk stage the batteries might be at 90% state of charge if the charger is small in comparison to the batteries.I said a *float* stage has no value when running from an alternator because engines are rarely run for 3 days at a time. The acceptance stage is one of the most important. I would never have said otherwise.

(Hence your justifying a simple diode addition to lift the charge voltage).

Which only affects having no float stage. It keeps it in acceptance for ever which is not the problem some people seem to think it is.

Now you are stating, in arguing against adaptive charging, that after the bulk stage, the battery will still be 50% discharged.Which is it? You can't have it both ways.

But I can and I will......If the charger is HUGE in relation to the battery bank size then after the bulk stage the batteries will still be flat, the bulk stage will have been short and the batteries will require a long acceptance stage. If the charger is small in relation to the battery bank size then after the bulk stage the batteries will be almost full and will require a short acceptance stage. And lo and behold, that is EXACTLY the opposite of what this so called "adaptive charging" does.I would appreciate you providing a link to where I said what you say I did. You can't because I didn't say it :)Gibbo

So why do expensive Victron chargers bother to include this feature?

Because some people think it works, some customers demand it, and therefore they have to provide what the market wants. But their engineers obviously know it doesn't work which is why they give the option to switch it off.Gibbo

Well, power out = power in + efficiency losses so it makes no odds really, big battery bank, longer less frequent charging, small battery bank, shorter more frequent charging.

..... and shorter battery life....Gibbo

[chris w]

If the charger is HUGE in relation to the battery bank size then after the bulk stage the batteries will still be flat, the bulk stage will have been short and the batteries will require a long acceptance stage. If the charger is small in relation to the battery bank size then after the bulk stage the batteries will be almost full and will require a short acceptance stage.

 

Gibbo

 

But boaters don't use a charger that is "HUGE" compared to the battery bank size. You are arguing the politics of extremes and, thus, a situation that doesn't obtain in practice.

 

Typically a boater will have a charger that is around 10%-20% of the battery bank size. ie: a 400AH battery bank and a 40-50A charger is probably the most common set up. I haven't met anyone yet with a 1000A charger!!

 

Chris