Buying a boat

[Shamu1]

We are in the process of purchasing a boat, it was used as a hire boat the surveyor picked up that the CIN number is not marked on the transom and tthe current owner is refusing to pay to get it put on She is also refusing to get the safety work done that our surveyor pointed out I would be grateful of some advice before I hand over the money

[Yoda]

We are in the process of purchasing a boat, it was used as a hire boat the surveyor picked up that the CIN number is not marked on the transom and tthe current owner is refusing to pay to get it put on She is also refusing to get the safety work done that our surveyor pointed out I would be grateful of some advice before I hand over the money

 

She will have a problem with the sale, if you do not buy it. Offer a lot less money, so you do the work, either way it will cost her.

[steelaway]

We are in the process of purchasing a boat, it was used as a hire boat the surveyor picked up that the CIN number is not marked on the transom and tthe current owner is refusing to pay to get it put on She is also refusing to get the safety work done that our surveyor pointed out I would be grateful of some advice before I hand over the money

 

Hi There

 

If you post the boats name and location, there could be someone on here that knows it and give you best advice.

They seem to know every boat on the system!

 

Alex

[Shamu1]

ThANKS FOR THE ADVICE. WILL LET YOU KNOW HOW WE GET ON

[denboy]

don`t know about cin number but on the rest of surveyers findings knock some ££`s off the price if they won`t fix them if thats not acceptable walk away there are lots of boats for sale

[Shamu1]

don`t know about cin number but on the rest of surveyers findings knock some ££`s off the price if they won`t fix them if thats not acceptable walk away there are lots of boats for sale

 

 

The boat is specially adapted for someone who is disabled so they do not come onto the market often

[bottle]

Welcome to the forum.

 

It comes down to the fact that, if you want the boat, you know the faults, and are willing to pay the price asked and then get it fixed at your expense go ahead.

 

If you are not willing to buy at the price asked walk away and find another boat. Edit: you posted whilst I was typing so finding a similar boat will be more difficult.

 

Buying a boat is the same as buying anything else there is a price asked and a price paid if either is not to your liking you walk.

 

Good luck.

Edited March 1, 2008 by bottle

[blackrose]

I think you should ask the surveyor to estimate the cost of all the work required, subtract this from the asking price (if that was what you intended to pay), and then make that offer to the seller.

 

That's why you paid for a survey after all.

 

If the seller doesn't find this acceptable or is unwilling to negotiate then I wouldn't buy it, but that's obviously your decision. You could always get another boat converted for wheelchair access so it might be worth finding out how much this costs.

 

Tempting as it is, try not to fall in love with a boat before you buy it. You'll always be in a stronger position if you're prepared to walk away from an unsatisfactory deal.

[Keeping Up]

We are in the process of purchasing a boat, it was used as a hire boat the surveyor picked up that the CIN number is not marked on the transom and tthe current owner is refusing to pay to get it put on She is also refusing to get the safety work done that our surveyor pointed out I would be grateful of some advice before I hand over the money

Is the boat new enough to require a CIN number (an older boat would not have one) ?

[Gary Peacock]

The CIN number serves no purpose without the boat is CE marked only fully RCD compliant boats carry CIN numbers.

[Shamu1]

The CIN number serves no purpose without the boat is CE marked only fully RCD compliant boats carry CIN numbers.

 

 

I have a copy of the RCD document giving the CIN no but surveyor picked up it is not marked on the transom

[Gary Peacock]

I have a copy of the RCD document giving the CIN no but surveyor picked up it is not marked on the transom

 

They are breaking the law then, point out the below to them-

 

For an offence under the RCD, the person responsible for first placing the craft on the market or taking it into service the maximum penalty for breaching the RCD is 3 months imprisonment or a £5000 fine. This applies equally to private individuals and those in business. Although a prosecution must be brought with one year from the date of the offence there are other processes which can be invoked on the discovery of a non-compliant or falsely CE marked craft.

 

For some offences under the GPSD the penalties can be up to a £20,000 fine and up to 12 months imprisonment.

 

Where other action is also taken such as product recalls, warning and marking notices the costs recovered from the business if necessary.

 

These and other regulations give Trading Standards Officers in the UK, and any other authorised person in the EEA wide powers. These include the power to suspend, seize and apply for their forfeiture in order to take them off the market. Trading Standards Officers also have powers to enter premises, examine paperwork and goods to check that recreational craft do comply with the regulations.

 

These powers can be exercised whether or not an individual is prosecuted.

 

I would be a bit wary about the validity of the boats RCD conformity now, CIN marking is one of the simplest yet most important sections of the RCD and if the CIN number is missing strictly speaking it removes the method of tracing the builder which makes you wonder why?

[denboy]

Garry is the man when it comes to this sort of thing,,,,,,, does this CIN have to be on the transom or is it maybe hidden somewere else on the boat ?

[Shamu1]

They are breaking the law then, point out the below to them-

 

For an offence under the RCD, the person responsible for first placing the craft on the market or taking it into service the maximum penalty for breaching the RCD is 3 months imprisonment or a £5000 fine. This applies equally to private individuals and those in business. Although a prosecution must be brought with one year from the date of the offence there are other processes which can be invoked on the discovery of a non-compliant or falsely CE marked craft.

 

For some offences under the GPSD the penalties can be up to a £20,000 fine and up to 12 months imprisonment.

 

Where other action is also taken such as product recalls, warning and marking notices the costs recovered from the business if necessary.

 

These and other regulations give Trading Standards Officers in the UK, and any other authorised person in the EEA wide powers. These include the power to suspend, seize and apply for their forfeiture in order to take them off the market. Trading Standards Officers also have powers to enter premises, examine paperwork and goods to check that recreational craft do comply with the regulations.

 

These powers can be exercised whether or not an individual is prosecuted.

 

I would be a bit wary about the validity of the boats RCD conformity now, CIN marking is one of the simplest yet most important sections of the RCD and if the CIN number is missing strictly speaking it removes the method of tracing the builder which makes you wonder why?

 

 

I know the boat builder is Starline Marine LTD

[denboy]

maybe just me but i`m smelling a rat coould the rcd docs be fake just to bump the price of the boat up Is there a cenral governing body were rcd documents are held and be checked against the docs you have

Edited March 3, 2008 by denis boyle

[Gary Peacock]

Garry is the man when it comes to this sort of thing,,,,,,, does this CIN have to be on the transom or is it maybe hidden somewere else on the boat ?

 

This is what the law requires-

 

5 Requirements

5.1 Size

The size of the characters shall be at least 6 mm high.

 

5.2 Permanency of marking

Each CIN shall be carved, burned, stamped, embossed, moulded or otherwise permanently affixed so that

alteration, removal or replacement will be obvious. If on a plate, the plate shall be fastened so that its

removal will cause scarring to the surrounding area.

 

5.3 Location

The CIN shall be visible on the starboard outboard side of the transom, or near the stern within 50 mm of

the transom top, gunwale, hull/deck joint or its capping, whichever is lowest.

 

5.3.1 On craft with a transom, the CIN shall be located on the starboard side of the transom.

 

5.3.2 On craft without a transom or with a transom on which it is impractical to locate the CIN, the CIN

shall be affixed within 300 mm of the stern.

 

5.3.3 On catamarans the CIN shall be located as follows:

— hulls structurally permanently connected: on the starboard hull;

— hulls detachable but regarded as the primary structure: on both hulls;

— hulls readily removable and/or replaceable: on the aft cross-beam within 300 mm of the starboard hull;

this also applies to catamaran-type pontoon boats.

 

5.3.4 On trimarans theCIN shall be located on the centre hull in accordance with 5.3.1 or 5.3.2.

 

5.3.5 On inflatable boats the CIN shall be affixed on the rigid aft cross-beam or motor bracket

within 300 mm of the starboard hull attachment. If the CIN is not readily visible due to the construction

of the boat, the hull identification number may be applied additionally to some other suitable structure of

the boat, such as the console assembly.

 

5.3.6 Rails, fittings or other accessories shall not obscure the CIN located as specified above. If the design

of the small craft would result in this, the HIN shall be located as near as possible to the required location

to be visible.

 

5.4 Duplicate CIN

A duplicate CIN shall be affixed to a non-removable part of the craft in a hidden location in the interior or

beneath a fitting or item of hardware. Catamarans shall have this hidden CIN in or on both hulls.

 

5.5 Time of CIN marking

The CIN shall be affixed to the craft during the construction of the hull. In no case shall the craft be put

on the market without the CIN being affixed.

 

5.6 Display format

The CIN shall be displayed in alphanumerical characters (arabic numerals and upper case letters) and

shall read from left to right.

Edited March 3, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[denboy]

sounding more and more like a "ringer" so am i correct in that they are illegally selling a rcd complient boat then ?

[Gary Peacock]

maybe just me but i`m smelling a rat could the rcd docs be fake just to bump the price of the boat up Is there a cenral governing body were rcd documents are held and be checked against the docs you have

 

This one might or might not be a rat, but lots are! In theory no RCD Declaration of conformity or AnexIIIa Declaration means that a boat should be impossible to license, but there is a well known scam in boatbuilding involving the services of Mr Boat Safety Scheme examiner to get a new production boat licenced without RCD conformity and onto the water!

 

If you buy a new boat that doesn't need a BSS certificate why do you think that nice Mr Boatbuilder is giving you a certificate? (Oh dear the cats got out of the bag, what a shame! )

 

The only track of RCD documentation is the three letter MIC (Manafacturers Identification Code) contained in the CIN these codes are issued administrated by the Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform. (Don't let on but the BMF actually do it for them in reality!

 

With this 3 letter code any builder in Europe can be identified, (What worries some is that the number of codes issued in the UK is far less than the number of builders?) the builders are required by law to maintain compliance paperwork, including the full Technical File, and make it available for inspection for 10 years after the craft was placed on the market.

 

So in theory any builder with a valid MIC that correctly CIN marks the boat and maintains the records can provide the legal information required in the event of an incident.

 

Unfortunately no DVLA type database exists just the fairly rudimentary system a above, that although law is lets say "Taken with a pinch of salt" by many ditch crawler builders.

 

The blue water builders take it much more seriously because their customers take RCD compliance very seriously, unlike the average ditch crawler owner who will knowingly deal with a builder who fraudulently claims RCD conformity if it "saves" them a few quid.

[Shamu1]

I have copied your part from the trading standards to the current owner they are holding a deposit for the purchase of the boat I have contacted the surveyor to arrange for him to do the compliance checks and issue safety certificate

[riverbargeman]

You should find some real advice from putting Recreational craft Directive into google.

 

I see that the towpath experts are telling you things without asking you any questions......very telling !

Edited March 3, 2008 by riverbargeman

[Gary Peacock]

Do I smell Troll or Rat or both?

 

Google is good on it though-

 

Web Personalised Results 1 - 10 of about 28,500 for Recreational craft Directive. (0.23 seconds)

 

RYA - www.rya.org.uk - Recreational Craft DirectiveBuying or importing a boat? Then you need to know about the RCD.

www.rya.org.uk/KnowledgeBase/technical/reccraftdir.htm - 43k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

 

Guide to Recreational Craft DirectiveMarine Surveys Ltd specialist in Recreational Craft Directives (RCD) 94/25/EC and 2003/44/EC.

www.mcarter.co.uk/recreational_craft_directive_guide.htm - 15k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

 

CEproof - Marine DivisionThere are certain types of vessel excluded from the European RCD, including: ... Is your boat excluded from the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD)? ...

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Canal Junction - the RCD and narrowboatsThe Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) was introduced by the European Commission in 1994 to ensure a uniform level of safety in the design and manufacture ...

www.canaljunction.com/boat/rcd_narrowboat.htm - 20k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

 

Enterprise & Industry - Recreational Craft Industry - Directive 94 ...Enterprise & Industry - Maritime Industry - Maritime Regulatory Aspects: Recreational Craft Industry - Recreational Craft Directive 94/25/EC.

ec.europa.eu/enterprise/maritime/maritime_regulatory/directive_94_25.htm - 16k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

 

[PDF] EUROPA - Enterprise - Recreational Craft DirectiveFile Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML

TO THE DIRECTIVE COMBINED. Second edition. Enterprise Publications. European Commission. Recreational craft directive and comments to the directive combined ...

ec.europa.eu/enterprise/maritime/maritime_regulatory/doc/guide_v2_94_25_en.pdf - Similar pages - Note this

 

Barrie Morse - Recreational Craft DirectiveThe Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) is a trade directive that became law on the 16th June 1996. A two-year introductory period was allowed for and ...

www.marinesurveyor.co.uk/rcd.htm - 18k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

 

Lloyd's Register - Standards we assess - Directives - Recreational ...Information about the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) and how Lloyd's Register can help you with certification of your craft and components.

www.lr.org/Standards/Directives/Recreational+Craft+Directive.htm - 29k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

 

[PDF] Recreational Craft Directive 2003/44/EC Emissions Amendment ...File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML

Recreational Craft Directive 2003/44/EC Emissions Amendment Compliance Matrix. Technical information sheet 041104. EMISSIONS. APPLICATION ...

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Peter Nicholls (YachtBuilders) Ltd | The Recreational Craft DirectiveWhat is the Recreational Craft Directive (RCD) ? The RCD is a legal requirement in European Member States (EEA) Recreational crafts must conform to the ...

www.steelboats.com/recreational_craft_directive.htm - 19k - Cached - Similar pages - Note this

[denboy]

You should find some real advice from putting Recreational craft Directive into google.

 

I see that the towpath experts are telling you things without asking you any questions......very telling !

If thats directed at me i not an expert in anything if you go back over the last few years on this forum you will find a few people who have had there hard earned cash swindled from them and they`ve ended up with nothing. from what ive read on this particular post there is paper work for the boat that does not seem to be right ie would you buy a car with a log book but foumd the VIN number wasn`t on the car I wouldnt .. we aren`t talking about a couple of hundred quid here for an old car

The boat maybe ok but the paper work doesnt match and as garry has stated it should have a cin number and it doesn`t

[riverbargeman]

If thats directed at me i not an expert in anything if you go back over the last few years on this forum you will find a few people who have had there hard earned cash swindled from them and they`ve ended up with nothing. from what ive read on this particular post there is paper work for the boat that does not seem to be right ie would you buy a car with a log book but foumd the VIN number wasn`t on the car I wouldnt .. we aren`t talking about a couple of hundred quid here for an old car

The boat maybe ok but the paper work doesnt match and as garry has stated it should have a cin number and it doesn`t

 

The RCD doesn’t apply to second hand craft.

[bottle]

The RCD doesn't apply to second hand craft.

 

I think it does if the boat is less than five years old.

[riverbargeman]

I think it does if the boat is less than five years old.

No your thinking is wrong. None of the CE marking directives AKA 'The new aproach directives' apply to second hand items.

 

This is a trade directive which offers the INITIAL consumer some protection by requiring products to be made to minimum safety requirements.

 

Read the text of the directive 94/25/EC or 2003/44/EC and you will better understand.