Gardner Engines and Beginners - Advice Please

[Jim Batty]

My partner and I are contemplating a narrowboat with a Gardner 4LK engine in it. I have little experience of diesel engines, and none whatever of Gardners, so although it looks impressive in its own cabin, and I like the idea of the engine (its not a show piece; just a functional engine with a rusty block, etc.) I'm a little daunted by it. The rest of the boat looks great and its layout would suit us.

 

I guess what I'm worried about is getting replacement parts for it should it break down, as I take it that this model hasn't been in production since the 80s. Anybody out there know the character of the 4LK and how it is generally regarded? Are there certain parts I can expect to have to replace (I think this one was built in the 80s) in the short term that might be difficult to get hold of?

 

Also, more generally, is keeping a vintage engine (we would be living aboard) going to be just a little too much for ordinary mortals like us to maintain? Or are they actually simpler to look after because they are simpler engines compared to modern ones?

 

Any comments based on experience would be greatly appreciated.

 

Jim Batty

[gary4lw]

My partner and I are contemplating a narrowboat with a Gardner 4LK engine in it. I have little experience of diesel engines, and none whatever of Gardners, so although it looks impressive in its own cabin, and I like the idea of the engine (its not a show piece; just a functional engine with a rusty block, etc.) I'm a little daunted by it. The rest of the boat looks great and its layout would suit us.

 

I guess what I'm worried about is getting replacement parts for it should it break down, as I take it that this model hasn't been in production since the 80s. Anybody out there know the character of the 4LK and how it is generally regarded? Are there certain parts I can expect to have to replace (I think this one was built in the 80s) in the short term that might be difficult to get hold of?

 

Also, more generally, is keeping a vintage engine (we would be living aboard) going to be just a little too much for ordinary mortals like us to maintain? Or are they actually simpler to look after because they are simpler engines compared to modern ones?

 

Any comments based on experience would be greatly appreciated.

 

Jim Batty

Do a search for Gardner Enthusiasts on Google they should be able to help you Gary

[Henhouse]

Gardner were without doubt the greatest engine builder to have ever graced this planet. Their engines were true masterpieces of engineering ,and in their time, far superior to anything else available.

 

The 4LK design was originally produced from 1935, and offered commercial vehicle operators of the day a robust and reliable engine with outstanding economy. 52 hp @ 2000rpm.

 

As with any engine, it is down to how well it has previously been maintained which will determine how reliable it may be in the future. There are still specialists out there with a vast knowledge of these units, and they will be your best source of advice.

 

Personally, if I had the money to comission my perfect boat there simply wouldn't be any consieration given to anything other than a Gardner in it's own engine room.

 

.............................just off to buy a lottery ticket and keep the dream alive

[jerrytug]

Bite their fingers off matey,top motors and still have spares back-up,good website is "internalfire" where you can download workshop manuals etc for most old diesels,Jerry

[Timleech]

Bite their fingers off matey,top motors and still have spares back-up,good website is "internalfire" where you can download workshop manuals etc for most old diesels,Jerry

 

Spares for the 4LK are particularly difficult, try buying a 7/16" pitch triplex roller timing chain today!

(maybe someone is getting them made now - I did look into that some years ago)

 

(Find out whether it's had a new timing chain in living memory )

 

Lovely smooth engines when they are 'right', though not the easiest of the Gardners upon which to work.

 

Tim

[Jim Batty]

Gary4LW, Henhouse, Jerrytug & TimLeech

 

Thanks for your words of wisdom and tips — these are really helpful. I've had encouragement from Gardner Enthusiasts and that InternalFire site is great. Must admit, still need to check out what a timing chain is!

 

Jim

[andywatson]

Gary4LW, Henhouse, Jerrytug & TimLeech

 

Thanks for your words of wisdom and tips — these are really helpful. I've had encouragement from Gardner Enthusiasts and that InternalFire site is great. Must admit, still need to check out what a timing chain is!

 

Jim

 

 

Many vintage engines of reputable make which can be found on narrowboats enjoyed long production runs (sometimes decades) and were widely used in other industrial applications. Consequently spare parts for those engines are often widely available. The fact that so many are still in regular use and requiring spares makes the manufacture and distribution of parts viable even if not by the original manufaturer. Obviously major parts not consumed or used regularly will be more difficult to source.

 

Conversely some modern engines are more complex, have comparatively short production runs and may face spares shortages in the medium to long term.

 

I would therefore advise whatever make and model of engine you might buy to ensure that it was a widely used engine, what it's history was and crucially when it was rebuilt and who by. Then check out the rebuilders reputation.

 

I've seen old air cooled Listers driving water well pumps in the Middle East and diesel locomotives powered by Gardner engines in the hot and dirty environment of the South African gold mines so you can be sure a narrowboat won't kill them.

 

I suppose my opinion is biased but I've put my money where my mouth is on a 1934 Gardner 3LW which leaks a bit of oil but runs nicely.

----------It's got soul.

Edited October 15, 2007 by andywatson

[Henhouse]

Take a look around a few fairgrounds, and see which engines are still used by many Showmen to drive their gensets.

 

Gardner.

 

Being honest about this, there are fewer nowadays than there used to be, but that has been brought about by the increased complexity of modern fairground rides. There are also more regulations requiring encapsulation for noise etc.

 

There was always a boom export market for 2nd hand Gardners from trucks, and buses, which were sold worldwide for industrial and marine applications.

 

If you are wondering why Gardners are no longer in production, think back to the 70's and the days of industrial disruption caused by militant unions. As with our entire British commercial vehicle industry Gardner became a victim of market domination by imported makes.

 

There was also a stubborn refusal by the family run management to develop turbocharged engines to match the offerings from Volvo and Scania.

 

That having been said, the died in the wool operators of lorries such as ERF, Foden, and Atkinson were prepared to wait up to 18 months to purchase a Gardner powered vehicle.

[Sir Nibble]

Yes, lovely motors. I fell in love with gardners as a bus company apprentice. I used to rebuild starters for them and I have been having dreadful difficulty in recent years getting parts for the old CAV axial starters, and getting bits for the Simms co-axial units is, well, a non starter. Any Gardner owners out there who may have to have their starter off for any reason, please take some measurements for me as I am trying to identify a replacement from modern stocks.

[redfastlad]

My partner and I are contemplating a narrowboat with a Gardner 4LK engine in it. I have little experience of diesel engines, and none whatever of Gardners, so although it looks impressive in its own cabin, and I like the idea of the engine (its not a show piece; just a functional engine with a rusty block, etc.) I'm a little daunted by it. The rest of the boat looks great and its layout would suit us.

 

I guess what I'm worried about is getting replacement parts for it should it break down, as I take it that this model hasn't been in production since the 80s. Anybody out there know the character of the 4LK and how it is generally regarded? Are there certain parts I can expect to have to replace (I think this one was built in the 80s) in the short term that might be difficult to get hold of?

 

Also, more generally, is keeping a vintage engine (we would be living aboard) going to be just a little too much for ordinary mortals like us to maintain? Or are they actually simpler to look after because they are simpler engines compared to modern ones?

 

Any comments based on experience would be greatly appreciated.

 

Jim Batty

I love the vintage motors and always ask about the engine in passing boats,but as a owner of a new shire barrus i prefer the functionallity over the looks and sounds,i have found that a lot of boats are somewhat over engined with these big motors, the result is a very smokey exhaust and even with the big props these engines will turn they cannot really be worked hard enough to justify thier place in a narrow boat.I recently sold an Armstrong Siddley air cooled 2 cylinder engine which gave 20hp @1500rpm now this was considered ample for working boats pulling big loads on the canals so why do you need the oversized hot engines taking up valuable floor space just for the sake of us enthusiasts ? dont add up to me then again takes all sorts.

[SteveE]

My partner and I are contemplating a narrowboat with a Gardner 4LK engine in it. I have little experience of diesel engines, and none whatever of Gardners, so although it looks impressive in its own cabin, and I like the idea of the engine (its not a show piece; just a functional engine with a rusty block, etc.) I'm a little daunted by it. The rest of the boat looks great and its layout would suit us.

 

I guess what I'm worried about is getting replacement parts for it should it break down, as I take it that this model hasn't been in production since the 80s. Anybody out there know the character of the 4LK and how it is generally regarded? Are there certain parts I can expect to have to replace (I think this one was built in the 80s) in the short term that might be difficult to get hold of?

 

Also, more generally, is keeping a vintage engine (we would be living aboard) going to be just a little too much for ordinary mortals like us to maintain? Or are they actually simpler to look after because they are simpler engines compared to modern ones?

 

Any comments based on experience would be greatly appreciated.

 

Jim Batty

 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder in these matters, Jim. We looked at an historic wooden boat with a Gardner 4LK in nice condition but, much to my other half's surprise, I didn't like it. Too much like a bus engine, wrong noise and far too big for a narrowboat. Cabin headroom of 5' 8" didn't help either!!

Bought an old boat with a Petter PD2 instead - lovely!

SteveE

Edited November 4, 2007 by SteveE

[john4647]

Yes, lovely motors. I fell in love with gardners as a bus company apprentice. I used to rebuild starters for them and I have been having dreadful difficulty in recent years getting parts for the old CAV axial starters, and getting bits for the Simms co-axial units is, well, a non starter. Any Gardner owners out there who may have to have their starter off for any reason, please take some measurements for me as I am trying to identify a replacement from modern stocks.

 

Wood Auto still do parts for BS5 & 6 also for SL5 & 6.

[saltysplash]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder in these matters, Jim. We looked at an historic wooden boat with a Gardner 4LK in nice condition but, much to my other half's surprise, I didn't like it. Too much like a bus engine, wrong noise and far too big for a narrowboat. Cabin headroom of 5' 8" didn't help either!!

Bought an old boat with a Petter PD2 instead - lovely!

SteveE

 

 

mmmm Gardner......the 4L3 in the old tub, fitted in 1945 when the admiralty handed her back to the fishing fleet after her war work is still going strong with minimum maintainance and lack of fuss, yep. not much in the way of gaskets and the rag by the gearbox wipes away most oil deposits but what a sound...and if any one needs spares....ive got 3 spare pots and pistons which have been waiting for the past 30 years to be used but the old girl just wont give it up.

 

folks probably getting fed up with these pics but who cares when its a classic engine

 

 

 

Note oily rag just behind gear wheel

Edited November 5, 2007 by saltysplash

[Sir Nibble]

Wood Auto still do parts for BS5 & 6 also for SL5 & 6.

Some yes. If you want a contact set or an armature no probs, what about thrust washers, ce spigot shafts, terminal assemblies? These units are getting very old now and there is a limit to how long worn parts will go again. Also, Wood Auto and Cargo list quite a lot but are actually able to supply somewhat less!

[john4647]

Some yes. If you want a contact set or an armature no probs, what about thrust washers, ce spigot shafts, terminal assemblies? These units are getting very old now and there is a limit to how long worn parts will go again. Also, Wood Auto and Cargo list quite a lot but are actually able to supply somewhat less!

 

Hello, Terminals EC3022 and EC3023, CE Bearings (Spigot) EC3026 and EC3027. No thrust washers though.

[Sir Nibble]

Hello, Terminals EC3022 and EC3023, CE Bearings (Spigot) EC3026 and EC3027. No thrust washers though.

That's terminals for sl5 and bs5, nothing for bs6 or u6, last time I tried the spigots were not available, what you see is what you get, namely the picture in the catalogue, but nothing in metal!

[Maudesmaster]

Wood Auto still do parts for BS5 & 6 also for SL5 & 6.

I replaced my CAV 24 volt starter with a 12 volt unit from /startermotoralternator.com but keeping the 24 volt very good company excellent service

[alan_fincher]

Nearly 9 years between consecutive postings in the same thread may or may not be a forum record, I don't know, but it is a pretty good attempt.

 

Revisiting the thread I'm reminded what a tragedy it is that Tim Leech is no longer with us to give his expert advice. If Tim said something, I was always pretty confident it was right!

[jonesthenuke]

You could get a survey undertaken by a specialist e.g. http://www.gardnermarine.com/pre-purchase-surveys/however I expect this company to be rather pricey. There are others and to an extent it depends on where the boat is as travel costs may be significant. Gardner Marine do however stock many spares so yo may want to browse the spares section of their web site..

[Athy]

That's good info, Jones. I hadn't knowingly heard of Gardner Marine. I think that Gardner Parts is the remaining bit of the original company, but they no longer supply bits for the L2 and LK engines - as Gardner Marine apparently do, though I am not sure if this supply is restricted to parts which are in common with other engines such as the LW (which is supported by Gardner Parts). When we have our 2LW serviced, the bits come from Walsh's Engineering, who in turn get them from Gardner Parts.

[Jim Riley]

 

If you are wondering why Gardners are no longer in production, think back to the 70's and the days of industrial disruption caused by militant unions.

 

Politics of the right wing variety!

It was bad management, objected to by hard working workers.

[Athy]

 

Politics of the right wing variety!

It was bad management, objected to by hard working workers.

The two views are not mutually exclusive, surely.

[MtB]

Nearly 9 years between consecutive postings in the same thread may or may not be a forum record, I don't know, but it is a pretty good attempt.

 

Revisiting the thread I'm reminded what a tragedy it is that Tim Leech is no longer with us to give his expert advice. If Tim said something, I was always pretty confident it was right!

 

 

Couldn't agree more Alan.

 

But look what you've done, you've got them discussing nine year old posts now!

[bargemast]

Nearly 9 years between consecutive postings in the same thread may or may not be a forum record, I don't know, but it is a pretty good attempt.

 

Revisiting the thread I'm reminded what a tragedy it is that Tim Leech is no longer with us to give his expert advice. If Tim said something, I was always pretty confident it was right!

 

That is exactly what I thought when reading this thread, people like Tim, who was always willing to share his practical knowledge with everyone that needed help that he could give with his extensive experience are hard to find.

 

Peter.

[mark99]

The two views are not mutually exclusive, surely.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlL68PF1n9E

 

Make your own mind up.

 

Does not look a hivy of busy workers to me.