Canoists - can we moan about them?

[Chris J W]

ARG!!

 

Just before the turn to Sainsbury at Kensal Green there was about a dozen canoists who took three lots of sounding the horn and nearly having to go backwards before they got out the way. Can't they see 20 odd ton of steel bearing down on them?

 

I was dreading hitting one. I even heard the teacher bloke saying "it's OK, you can get out of the way quickly so you don't have to react too quick." Fine for you! But what about us poor buggers that were dreading seeing a trail of blood suddenly coming through the prop wash after a bit of crunching.

[John Orentas]

Chris.

 

I must say I don't think you are not taking the right attitude, it is not necessarily their responsibility to get out of your way, it is equally your responsibility to get make way for them. It is normally accepted that all canal users are treated equally, if there was a lot of them I would say the convention was for you to come to a stop and allow them to pass.

[Lady Muck]

Wait til you get to Broxbourne, its like being in a computer game - we call it Super Mario Boating World!

[Chris J W]

Chris.

 

I must say I don't think you are not taking the right attitude, it is not necessarily their responsibility to get out of your way, it is equally your responsibility to get make way for them. It is normally accepted that all canal users are treated equally, if there was a lot of them I would say the convention was for you to come to a stop and allow them to pass.

 

John,

 

I think you may have missread my intention of the post. As I said, I was dreading hitting one by accident and had slowed down so much that I was considering having to reverse to give them time.

 

It was incredibly frustating to be 'beeping' at them without any apparent reaction until the last moment.

 

A very worrying situation for someone like me who's only just starting out. I accept that I have a responsibility, but so do they. The teacher could have at least acknowledge my first blast and started marshalling them out of the way.

 

My attitude - I don't want somebody killed.

 

Chris

 

[edit for missing word 'situation']

Edited August 8, 2007 by Chris J W

[magpie patrick]

A model perhaps of how to do it: as we approached the bottom of the stourbridge 16 there were a number of canoes in the pool at the junction with the town arm. The leader made a fairly clear (but polite) gesture asking which way we were going and then marshalled the canoes into the town arm, they were still paddling but not in our way. As I got off I heard him shout to them "and the lock is empty so there won't be any turbulence"...

[andywatson]

ARG!!

 

Just before the turn to Sainsbury at Kensal Green there was about a dozen canoists who took three lots of sounding the horn and nearly having to go backwards before they got out the way. Can't they see 20 odd ton of steel bearing down on them?

 

I was dreading hitting one. I even heard the teacher bloke saying "it's OK, you can get out of the way quickly so you don't have to react too quick." Fine for you! But what about us poor buggers that were dreading seeing a trail of blood suddenly coming through the prop wash after a bit of crunching.

 

Normally I slow down and go into neutral and let the canoeists sort themselves out. Seems to work OK.

 

However, just north of Coven on the Staffs and Worcester (which is shallow, twisty and not the easiest of places to take a 70 footer with near 3ft draft) I rounded a bend to find a group of kids who looked less than 10 years old, in canoes lashed together in pairs, clearly out of serious control and going in all directions. Their "supervisor" shouted at them to go to the edge and hold on (Which is where I would have ended up if I'd shut off power). One of the craft ended up spinning on the spot as the kids on either side paddled in opposite directions! It was a shambles but fortunately no collision occured.

 

In the few seconds I had to talk with the "supervisor" I warned him of the danger his kids were in but he replied that they were OK and could get out of the way.

I just hope it's not me that squashes a couple of plastic canoes full of kids against the piling.

 

I don't know what the establishment is that runs this activity but I wouldn't want my kids there.

--------If I had any that is.

Edited August 8, 2007 by andywatson

[Machpoint005]

Normally I slow down and go into neutral and let the canoeists sort themselves out. Seems to work OK.

 

However, just north of Coven on the Staffs and Worcester (which is shallow, twisty and not the easiest of places to take a 70 footer with near 3ft draft) I rounded a bend to find a group of kids who looked less than 10 years old, in canoes lashed together in pairs, clearly out of serious control and going in all directions. Their "supervisor" shouted at them to go to the edge and hold on (Which is where I would have ended up if I'd shut off power). One of the craft ended up spinning on the spot as the kids on either side paddled in opposite directions! It was a shambles but fortunately no collision occured.

 

In the few seconds I had to talk with the "supervisor" I warned him of the danger his kids were in but he replied that they were OK and could get out of the way.

I just hope it's not me that squashes a couple of plastic canoes full of kids against the piling.

 

I don't know what the establishment is that runs this activity but I wouldn't want my kids there.

--------If I had any that is.

 

Same action when approaching any hazard of unknown severity (whether hazardous to you or the other party) - slow right down and await developments. Canoeists can generally move pretty quickly. If they are novices it will soon become obvious. They do have a right to be there, after all.

 

Ian

[Tony Brooks]

Same action when approaching any hazard of unknown severity (whether hazardous to you or the other party) - slow right down and await developments. Canoeists can generally move pretty quickly. If they are novices it will soon become obvious. They do have a right to be there, after all.

 

Ian

 

 

Only if they pay their license fees at the same rate as other users and not a special British Canoe Union rate (an almost smiley here).

 

 

I think it would be fair to consider a narrowboat to be constrained by draft and room to manouver. In such circumstances it is up to canoeist to make room for the narrowboat. However the smaller the shallower draft the boat the less this would seem to apply. In any case the narrowboat should slow down if possible.

 

Much depends upon the leaders.

 

I have seen nothing but due care, courtesy and common sense displayed by the canoes at Cropedy, but the ones at Bradford on Avon are suicidal, trying to surf the bow wave (such as it is) and trying to catch the tow behind the boat. They also play chicken by suddenly paddling across the boat as you slowly pass them. Their leaders and hirers seem to think there is no problem, but one day someone will get killed there.

 

Tony Brooks

[Carrie]

I love seeing canoeists on the water, but I know what you mean Chris, I too worry about hurting them. This fear stems from when I was Cropredy way, where there are lots of children who practise at a canoeing 'school' at the weekend (I now know). It was the windiest of days and I wouldn't normally have been boating (can't remember the urgency now) but as I rounded a bend, going quite fast to combat the gusts, the wind swept me right across the canal, narrowly missing 3 canoeists. I was so scared after that, I crawl past them apologetically now.

[carlt]

I love seeing canoeists on the water, but I know what you mean Chris, I too worry about hurting them. This fear stems from when I was Cropredy way, where there are lots of children who practise at a canoeing 'school' at the weekend (I now know). It was the windiest of days and I wouldn't normally have been boating (can't remember the urgency now) but as I rounded a bend, going quite fast to combat the gusts, the wind swept me right across the canal, narrowly missing 3 canoeists. I was so scared after that, I crawl past them apologetically now.

 

I was moving a motorised wooden butty a few years ago and came upon a canoe club who had those dangly slalom thingies out on the cut.

 

The butty was in sound(ish) condition except for the completely disintegrating front end, rough ends of planks, exposed ironwork, that sort of thing.

 

The canoeists politely moved over to the side so I was forced to go straight through the slalom course. At which point all the dangly things (I'm sure there is a technical term out there) got tangled on the rough bits of the bow and I pulled the lot down. I was very apologetic, they saw the funny side, I went on my way and all was well in the world once more.

Edited August 8, 2007 by carlt

[andywatson]

Same action when approaching any hazard of unknown severity (whether hazardous to you or the other party) - slow right down and await developments. Canoeists can generally move pretty quickly. If they are novices it will soon become obvious. They do have a right to be there, after all.

 

Ian

 

That's all very well in theory but show me a narrowboat that's not got some bumps and scrapes on it.

Has yours?

 

I was in a narrow channel on a bend and moving slowly enough to react to hazards that could reasonably be expected to arise but still steer. This "hazard" was effectively filling the entire canal and moving randomly. If I had knocked off the power or reversed violently the bow might well have swung out of line increasing the probability of a collision.

Of course I would have seen a boat much earlier but those kids were low to the water and hidden by the bank until the last few seconds.

 

Having in the past done sea kayaking, slalom and white water racing I know how canoes behave.

 

 

It was instantly obvious that they were novices. I did not claim that they had no right to be there but

I still contend that those kids were in an unsafe place and badly supervised.

They might as well have been playing on the motorway.

Edited August 8, 2007 by andywatson

[Neil.A]

all the dangly things (I'm sure there is a technical term out there)

The official name for them are "dangly bits"

HTH

[Chris J W]

I love seeing canoeists on the water, but I know what you mean Chris, I too worry about hurting them. This fear stems from when I was Cropredy way, where there are lots of children who practise at a canoeing 'school' at the weekend (I now know). It was the windiest of days and I wouldn't normally have been boating (can't remember the urgency now) but as I rounded a bend, going quite fast to combat the gusts, the wind swept me right across the canal, narrowly missing 3 canoeists. I was so scared after that, I crawl past them apologetically now.

 

Crawling I'm utterly OK with ... so long as they are prepared to do a bit of 'zipping', too!

[mayalld]

ARG!!

 

Just before the turn to Sainsbury at Kensal Green there was about a dozen canoists who took three lots of sounding the horn and nearly having to go backwards before they got out the way. Can't they see 20 odd ton of steel bearing down on them?

 

 

I was dreading hitting one. I even heard the teacher bloke saying "it's OK, you can get out of the way quickly so you don't have to react too quick." Fine for you! But what about us poor buggers that were dreading seeing a trail of blood suddenly coming through the prop wash after a bit of crunching.

 

Nope, they are invincible.

 

However, you can't moan about them

 

In the brave new world, we are only permitted to moan about people who hold opinions and express them.

[David Schweizer]

Chris.

 

I must say I don't think you are not taking the right attitude, it is not necessarily their responsibility to get out of your way, it is equally your responsibility to get make way for them. It is normally accepted that all canal users are treated equally, if there was a lot of them I would say the convention was for you to come to a stop and allow them to pass.

Whilst I agree that courtesy and common sense should be used in such situations, I am suprised that no one has referered to the legal Duty of Care required under Government regulations for Outdoor Eduction Organizations. Under circumstances where the environment is potentially hazardous, the Instructing staff are required to put in place any neccesary arrangenments to ensure the safety of their students, which should include assuming that a large vessel may enter the same areas of water and there must be an established escape plan, designed to minimise any risk from another vessel.

 

I worked for ten years in the (then) Avon County Council Outdoor Eduction Centre on Bristol Harbour, and we had an active programm of Canoeing and Sailing in the Harbour. The same water was shared by commercial carrying ships, tall ships, Passenger carrying vessels and Visiting Royal Navy ships, along with quite a few narrowboats. Whilst we may have had a legal right of priority over powered vessels, we always ensured that all students were well out of the way of any powered vessel wel, before they presented any sort of risk.

 

Explaing that we had the "right of way" would not have placated many grieving parents if their offspring were drowned as a consequence of our arrogance, nor would it have stood well under cross examination in the County Court.

Edited August 8, 2007 by David Schweizer

[ChrisPy]

I believe that the rules on avoiding collision do not give canoeists right-of-way over a larger less manouverable boat in a restricted width of waterway under any circumstances. So while we should slow down (but preferably maintain steerage way) the canoeists must get out of the way as quickly as possible. If they are not competent to do that then they should be doing training in the public baths.

 

The only problems I have encountered are with sailing dinghies who do have right-of-way, especially when racing, but again this should not be at the risk of putting a larger less manouverable vessel in danger.

 

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

 

........ ducks (and geese) and runs for cover

[Teadaemon]

I believe that the rules on avoiding collision do not give canoeists right-of-way over a larger less manouverable boat in a restricted width of waterway under any circumstances. So while we should slow down (but preferably maintain steerage way) the canoeists must get out of the way as quickly as possible. If they are not competent to do that then they should be doing training in the public baths.

 

The only problems I have encountered are with sailing dinghies who do have right-of-way, especially when racing, but again this should not be at the risk of putting a larger less manouverable vessel in danger.

 

Speaking as a sailor, sailing vessels do have right of way over powered ones, but like canoeists have to give way for vessels restricted in their ability to manoever. Also whilst it's common courtesy to keep out of the way of vessels engaged in racing, as far as I'm aware there's no requirement to do so. I can remember one instance on the Norfolk Broads when we sailed on to Barton Broad and straight into the middle of a regatta, whose course had been marked out right across the navigable channel. Several of the racers felt it ok to abuse me for not giving way to them, despite me having literally no water in which to give way (racing punts to starboard, a fleet of Lasers to port, and the chance of going hard aground if I cut any corners).

[Machpoint005]

Same action when approaching any hazard of unknown severity (whether hazardous to you or the other party) - slow right down and await developments. Canoeists can generally move pretty quickly. If they are novices it will soon become obvious. They do have a right to be there, after all.

 

Ian

Sorry - should have made clear that 'slow right down' does not mean 'stop', it means 'slow down to the minimum speed giving steerage way'.

 

That's all very well in theory but show me a narrowboat that's not got some bumps and scrapes on it.

Has yours?

 

Of course - it goes along the canal, and concrete bits sometimes jump out at it.

 

Only if they pay their license fees at the same rate as other users and not a special British Canoe Union rate (an almost smiley here).

Tony Brooks

 

Why is this relevant? They still have the right to use the canals. They pay taxes (or their parents do). Just because boat licensing fees are hefty doesn't give their owners additional rights over lesser mortals. Neither should they. Boat owning isn't compulsory - you are free not to have a nb on the canal. Your choice at the published price.

 

Ian

[andywatson]

Sorry - should have made clear that 'slow right down' does not mean 'stop', it means 'slow down to the minimum speed giving steerage way'.

 

I was down to about 1 mph which is as slow as I can go and still steer, even though my options were limited. Even at that speed I would close a 50 ft gap in 30 seconds and still had to avoid 3 potential collisions which as I said earlier were moving randomly. (1 spinning on the spot- but for how long ? and the others changing their minds about where to go)

 

I can assure you that those kids were behaving less predictably than the lumps of concrete which jump out at your boat.

[WJM]

I am a canoeist and a narrowboater -

 

You wont hit a canoe with a narrowboat if you try - canoes are very agile, and your 7ft beam is tiny. My best advice is 'Pretend they are not there' The worst thing you can do if flap about changing direction, stick to your course and BE PREDICTABLE - things only go wrong when the motorboat starts weaving about - perhaps give a hoot but other than that keep motoring. Like Moses parting the red sea, a 7ft gap will appear when you need it fueled by that most basic human instinct of self preservation. Even if you did line one up in your sights, your bow wave will push it to one side anyway.

[ChrisPy]

when I was a lad .................. yeah, OK, ages and ages ago ......... ............. I was a canoeist on the Thames. Favourite trick was to 'surf' on the wake of the Salter's steamers that travelled well above any recognised speed limits.

 

It was exceedingly difficult to get close enough if the vessel was approaching you, because the bow wave pushed you away. The only way was to come in from the side near the stern of the vessel.

 

No, we weren't at all popular with the Salter's skippers.

[Chris J W]

I am a canoeist and a narrowboater -

 

You wont hit a canoe with a narrowboat if you try - canoes are very agile, and your 7ft beam is tiny. My best advice is 'Pretend they are not there' The worst thing you can do if flap about changing direction, stick to your course and BE PREDICTABLE - things only go wrong when the motorboat starts weaving about - perhaps give a hoot but other than that keep motoring. Like Moses parting the red sea, a 7ft gap will appear when you need it fueled by that most basic human instinct of self preservation. Even if you did line one up in your sights, your bow wave will push it to one side anyway.

 

Thanks for the otherside view, WJM. Still bloody "scary" for the one at the back, mind!

[Sir Nibble]

QUOTE(WJM @ Aug 9 2007, 09:37 AM)

I am a canoeist and a narrowboater -

 

You wont hit a canoe with a narrowboat if you try - canoes are very agile, and your 7ft beam is tiny. My best advice is 'Pretend they are not there' The worst thing you can do if flap about changing direction, stick to your course and BE PREDICTABLE - things only go wrong when the motorboat starts weaving about - perhaps give a hoot but other than that keep motoring. Like Moses parting the red sea, a 7ft gap will appear when you need it fueled by that most basic human instinct of self preservation. Even if you did line one up in your sights, your bow wave will push it to one side anyway.

 

Seen a canoe run down by a narrowboat, how did that happen then?

I know what you mean Chris, I have the same thing with cyclists on the road, I don't want to kill them and I would appreciate it if they would be so good as to co-operate with me on that.

[WJM]

"I have seen a canoe run down by a narrowboat, how did that happen then?"

 

Suicidal canoeist with a boat load of magnets?!

 

Was his name Knoxviille? Johnny Knoxville?

Edited August 9, 2007 by WJM

[John Orentas]

I have mentioned this happening before but I can't find it. An old boy who I used to moor close too made the trip to London every year to visit his son, on one occasion heading down the Grand Union he was annoyingly accompanied by a group of canoeists, young adults not kids.

 

One particularly irritating one who was paddling alongside suddenly disappeared "I just blinked and he was gone". A few seconds later a very frightened bloke, still in his canoe bobbed up on the opposite side of his boat and many yards from where he was last on the surface.

 

This may well be very much a freak incident though everyone agreed it could have ended a lot worse. At least two chaps will never forget it.