jddevel

I respect your point however perhaps I was naively believing that part of the CRTs` remit was the promotion and development of the canals. As part of the potential problem of RCDs could there be a decline in private ownership considering their potential effect on sellers and buyers? £4000 plus is a big expense on a £35000 craft which is the way many first get into owning their own. This could particularly affect the younger generation buying their "first" home. Any changes could affect it `s need for a new RCD before selling on. Look at how the MOT has developed from a simple safety check to a annual check. Once bureaucrats get on the case we could even have a annual BSS.

So perhaps the one party WHO SHOULD HAVE AN INTEREST and possibly could act on behalf of the boating community is the CRT after all as a major contributor to their coffers should our interests and concerns likewise be theirs?

So my answer is as my understanding was at the time I would do the same again. The facts were as follows. I was a retired property developer with timber workshops and experience in cabinet making. My wife and I had hired boats both in the UK and Ireland for nearly 50 years from the Broads initially way back in the mid 60s. On making the decision to own our own we approached a number of builders and were given a timeline of around 18 months. So impatient we looked at used craft. Only one suited our purpose and on the second viewing with a £1000 cash deposit in our hand we had a more detailed look. The engine room was partially filled with water. We walked away frustrated. Within a few days we saw a sailaway advertised at Sawley Marina. Researched sailaways and decided that it was a possibility. On purchase we used recommended" qualified" tradespeople for gas, and electric installations and limited our input to fit out -central heating and domestic wet goods. 40 plus years in those fields in bespoke property fit out we felt gave us sufficient experience. An enquiry was made regarding the RCD of a company in Southampton who stated that for a fee of £1000 they would complete the necessary on completion ( the hull had been transported to a work station near our home and was completed within 6 months, returned to the water professionally painted and used .The hull treated at Debdale. DURING ALL THIS TIME WE WERE CONTINUALLY INFORMED THAT PROVIDED WE KEPT THE VESSEL FOR MORE THAN 5 YEARS NO RCD WAS NEEDED. A point that many on here have referred to. Unfortunately life got in the way with aged parents needing attention, Covid and my wifes` health meant that the boat had limited use. This would have applied what ever I owned. So when the decision was made that perhaps keeping the boat was an unnecessary expense due to our age/health issues ( particularly my back problems and my wifes injuries due to a riding accident) we approached first the New and Used Boat Company who stated we needed a RCD. and then on moving to Braunston Marina for a more established and central location was again told that a RCD/RCA was required. Returning to the Southampton Company they had changed hands and now come under the umbrella of HPI the Government approved body for RCA/RCD certification. Their fee £4500. However Google gave me a different contact at £4000. This has been a long answer but I hope explains that it`s mis-information and questionable work by "experts" that have led to our situation. All has been or soon will be sorted but I had no crystal ball and even if I`d bought a second hand craft or boat builders a broker may well have still insisted that a RCD/RCA was required. The surveyor I`ve used has reported that he has viewed boats that the RCD was either out of date or not fit for purpose. As has been pointed out the requirement has always been there but was a grey area with much mis-information and change in Government policy and regulations. As the old expression goes "you pay your money and you take your choice" My mistake was not belt and braces and arranging the RCD in the first place with the Southampton company. You will see from my more recent rather lengthy response that the boat was in the water in 2017 and being used all be it not as much as we`d like.

I`m basically between a rock and a hard place. Firstly living around 4 1/2 hours from our boat viewings are difficult to "self manage" and trying to distinguish between serious and not so serious viewings. Next some marinas have restrictions on who can deal with craft for sale. Finally moving a craft to a marina with a broker to handle a sale I`ve met with the question"has it a current BSS and a RCD" so it remains at it`s current mooring although even there the difficulty has been the whole thing is an area of uncertainty but they are erring on the "it`s required". In a way with a craft which whilst biased is in great condition well equipped and hardly used (very low engine hours) the cost of both the works required and the RCD could possibly be suggested as a small percentage of the selling price- certainly in my case less than the brokerage plus VAT fee- balanced against the free mooring. However obviously with less expensive craft and unlike the brokerage fees the survey required being a set fee in real cash terms it is higher. Our craft is a 2017 57 feet semi-trad and how the survey fee would balance against say a 2005 similar craft percentage wise is not for me to comment on but I`d suggest a higher percentage plus things that may have changed in the meantime say in requirements- carbon monoxide alarm or man overboard return as I`m assuming that any RCD would have to conform to current regulations. They certainly did in our case.

One further point-In the event of problems insurance companies will be quick to avoid any liability if possible.

Well following the second visit by the "surveyor" to see whether all his previous requirements have been met, I`ve a second list to which I must admit having tried to reduce costs have tried to deal with myself but obviously failed!!! Certainly justifying his £4000 plus mileage bill. With the market having seemed to have "quietened" it`s a bitter pill to swallow.

Sort of in my defence when I started down the road of a narrowboat purchase although having spent in excess of 40 years hiring both in the UK and Ireland I considered buying a completed 2nd hand boat and a new completed vessel. Not happy with the then 2nd hand craft available and the length of wait for new I took the route of a sailaway that was immediately available of the length and style we were looking for. During my research I cover in what I believed was some detail. What I believed was the facts was that if I kept the ownership for a period of more that five years no RCD would be required. However to cover myself I contacted a company in Southampton and asked what would be required for them to issue the necessary. I even asked what visits would be required only to be informed that that would not be necessary provided I used experienced/qualified tradespeople for such as electrics and gas etc. They quoted £1000+VAT. I asked also what if I didn`t take up their quote but due to circumstances needed to sell within the 5 year period. They said no problem. BUT there was. Although outside the 5 years they`d sold out to another company recently who were associated with HPI as mentioned in my first submission quoted £4500 The final- I HOPE work, weed hatch and drain points are being coincidently completed today. I then have to request a re-inspection and if all satisfactorily shell out the remaining payment ( first visit and inspection £1800) £2200 for the certificate namely a RCA (Not RCD) Tony, Although a sailaway/self fitout I only was responsible for final fix of the wiring loom and kitchen/bathroom and bedding arrangements. All the remaining "faults" were completed by the believed qualified tradespeople arranged via the marina agent/broker the sailaway was purchased through. The surveyor stated that the RCD applied to both sailaway AND builder completed craft.

Tony can I,as the OP, add that just wait until insurance companies and solicitors get involved. WE all know how they can wriggle like eels if there`s a way to avoid liability. I will further add to my original topic starter that it was only indicated by two brokers that they suggested I needed a RCD. This was primarily because the matter had only really come to a head in the last few months. In fact as recently as the beginning of this month meetings were taking place regarding the necessity of a RCD/RCA and my particular case was raised during that time. It would appear that as many have remarked there is a possibility of it not really being necessary or indeed enforced. However I would also add that during this period of what I would term "flux" I have erred on the side of caution and got one. It has I hope also saved the potential cost of a buyers survey.. Might I suggest that prospective buyers MAY include it`s relevance when both comparing availability and both insurance companies and finance institutes place more importance in considering the requirement in their domain.

The directive came into force in 16th June 1996 with conformity being voluntary until 16th June 1998 after which the RCD became mandatory

So as a follow up to my instigating the need for a RCD/RCA I will expand on what has since happened. In order not to enter the world of uncertainty of either selling the boat privately or trying to find a broker who would act for me without the certificate I indeed bit the bullet and requested the necessary from a surveyor. They had to be registered with HPI - a Government instigated, all be it I believe private, entity. Whilst directly dealing with HPI requesting a list of suitable surveyors I was given a name covering my area and was told they`d be in touch. Cost £4500. A couple of weeks passed-no contact. So I went to Google.and found a surveyor listed with HPI. Quote £4000. The implication being that HPI get £500 for their "efforts"!!!. Anyway a survey was duly carried out. Well as a sailaway I did expect a reaction however to my surprise the only thing I will hold my hands up to was regarding the fact that the wiring loom purchased from Loomtec was incorrectly fitted by ME. By incorrectly fitted I mean where wire ends entered a terminal THEY SHOULD HAVE HAD A "CRIMP" type fitting applied so that the screws thereby correctly contacted all strands. The remainder of the issues were either incorrect due to the hull builder or the "qualified" trades people I employed. Year six of my ownership left me little,I felt, redress to those "experts". EXAMPLES of requirements were :- Raising the weed hatch chamber by 30mm as it was to close to the waterline. Arranging for the engine room vent to be at least 475 mm off the waterline. Reducing the bow well deck drain vents to an area between 1000 sq mm and 2800 sq mm. Installation of bow thruster fuse adjacent to bow thruster batteries. Fit suitable fuse to the solar panel circuit within 175mm of the batteries. Earth bonding between engine and hull. Fit a double pole 30Am RCD or RCBO between the incoming shoreline supply and the isolating transformer. Labelling procedure how the shoreline should be connected and disconnected. The real amusing ones were fit a suitable designated anchor point in the bow. A means of man over board return single handed. When pointed out that it already had welded plates attached to the stern for this purpose it was pointed out that they were to far from hand holds to enable climbing aboard. So I could either have more plates welded ( for example on the rudder!!!!!) or provide a boarding ladder- this is what I opted for. Two fixings on the bow and and a rope ladder with defined specifications as indicated by the surveyor. This is only a short list of the points I have had to sort which hopefully will be completed by the necessary trades people this coming week. I will emphasis that whilst a sailaway it was really only the general fit out ( cupboards,kitchen and beds etc) that I carried out with apart from the final connection to light switches etc (see above) were carried out either by the hull builder or supposedly qualified staff via the marina I purchased the sailaway from. All the brokers I approached regarding selling stated the need for a RCD/RCA. It was also stated by the surveyor that even if the craft had a RCD if ADDITIONAL works had been carried out afterwards i.e. installation of solar, a wood burner or changes to the electrics then a further survey would need to be in place when selling. In summary ITS A BLOODY CAN OF WORMS!!!! P.S. I`ve had two BSS surveys -one on launching and one on its expiry.

Yes incidentally the hull came with a 111A certificate of conformity.

There are those on here -like most forums I read, who take a delight in pointing out to those less informed retrospectively the error of their ways ( Watch youtube song " Oh God it`s hard to be humble when your perfect in every way). I realize having many years ago having a "short" tutorial in English Law - Caveat Emptor. However I will quote from the broker potentially being used " Are you aware if the boat had any major modifications since it was built-if so what and when? e.g. Alterations to electrical systems like solar panels, new larger inverter, installation of solid fuel stove ,installation of diesel heating. IF YES HAS IT GOT A POST CONSTRUCTION ASSESSMENT. If NO this may effect the sale of the boat This I might suggest covers many contributors on this forum INCLUDING those "experts" who have decided they know how to add internet upgrade equipment and the necessary upgraded electrical equipment ( more solar bigger batteries etc). We can all produce pages of information gained from the internet as to what is required for this and that but I live in the real world. Heaven forbid what is going to happen with the advancement of A.I. I don`t consider myself a total idiot just a human who makes mistakes and in this case will financially have to pay for it. Such is life and even nearing 80 I`m still like the game of chess still learning. Incidentally none of those contributing on here have told of their personal experience or given advice of a course of action other than I seem to have been presented with namely bite the bullet and shell out £4000 plus for an "expert" to prod and poke the boat.

I will confess that my case my gas engineer used a product which I believe comes originally from Germany. It is a continuous 5 core sheathed pipe which having no memory can be "manipulated " into corners bends etc without requiring joints but specialist tooling and fittings. I had to get the CRT to investigate and acknowledge its use. The engineer was specially trained in the products use. For the electrics Loomtec supplied the loom. Water was using Uponor pipe work. Again specialist tooling, fittings and trained at Uponors UK training center. I would add that the hull was constructed by Bourne Boats to a sailaway level.

Impatient to get afloat after years of hiring but just wanted a leisure craft for ourselves and the family in 2016 I approached a number of yards with the same response. You`ll have to wait at least 18 months to 2 years. Disgruntled I saw a sailaway ( engine ballast flooring windows etc in)-right length for us (57 ft) and design (semi trad). Having been in property development building new houses with qualified tradesmen ( and our own joinery workshop) I decided we could fit out the craft far quicker. 8 months later it was in the water and away to get painted and the hull treated at Debdale (zinc plus 2 pact)

Thank you Tony. Via another discussion I`ve mentioned potentially placing the boat on the market and the requirement of a RCR so having a qualified person appraise the situation ( which I most certainly not) is in my and any potential buyers interest.