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The thing is though, most boaters are perfectly happy with the T&Cs they are instructed to accept, seeing the sense in all boaters being bound by them. It's only the rump of boaters known as the Awkward Squad who will always want to make an issue out of the T&Cs whatever they might say, and I suspect they don't have the support of the majority of boaters on CRT waters. I certainly don't find the T&Cs restricting me in any way I find objectionable. Edit to add a worm.

Thats cos youve got a proper boat with a sensible power to weight ratio not a bloody floating skip like us numpty narrowskip owners drive

The stupid, vain and vapid have a public voice nowadays, which they never had 50 years ago. But avoiding Twitter, Facebook and reality TV is my way of ignoring this miasma of dross.

Nothing to do with porpoises. Although not a traditional style of narrow boat it is a canal boat and soon will be 50 years old. Originally not bearing any form of cant at the front end there was evidence of where years of ropes riding down over the sheerline (where the front deck meets the side of the hull) to the bank had worn the metal. Think of guard rails up the sides of humpy back bridges where countless years of horse ropes had rubbed. The cant allows the mooring rope to reach the bollard etc. without rubbing the edge of the boat. ....... and manufacturing it kept me off the streets and away from members of the public for several days.

This is allegedly one of the companies that has misled / misinformed (lied to ?) customers and has resulted in the buyer coming under an HMRC investigation and becoming liable for huge amounts of cash (£20k) being demanded to b paid 'that day'. Ask any supplier of a widebeam to provide you with HMRC accepted calculation that show it meets the criteria - alternatively 1) Work on the basis that any widebeam is subject to VAT at the standard rate (20%) 2) Enure that any sales contract does not pass on the VAT liability to the buye in the event that HMRCE decide it is not compliant. 3) Keep £20k available for instant payment to the VAT man if he calls. 4) Have boat custom built that has the 'extra-high' gunwhales that will allow it to comply, and get a certificate of compliance. This may help (from the 'Fit Out Pontoon' website: The HMRC formula for calculating gross tonnage for vessels of less than 24m in length is as follows. L (m) x B (m) x D (m) x 0.16 (see below for HMRC definitions of L,B & D) HMRC then go on to specifically define the D measurement for canal boats and this is measured from under the top of what we know as the gunwale to the base plate. As an interesting example, take ‘Panache’ the widebeam boat featured on our build diary of a huge 69’ long (L) x 11" beam (B) with a height of 46” (D). Let's work out the calculation by first converting the imperial measurements to metric so we have: 21.03m x 3.35m x 1.16m = 81.35 x 0.16 = 13.01 gross tons… Not a qualifying vessel. So heres the interesting part in order to get a boat even of this size to qualify the standard (D) measurement would need another 190mm adding giving a (D) measurement of 1.35m. See the revised calculation below: (21.03m x 3.35m x 1.35) = 95.10 multiplied by 0.16 = 15.21 gross tons, a qualifying ship. So here's the bottom line: Provided that the boat is not designed or adapted for recreation or pleasure at the time you buy it and so long as the gross tonnage (L x W x D (from the underside of the back deck, or gunwale if no back deck) x 0.16) works out to be not less than 15 tons the supply of the boat is zero-rated so no VAT. Simple! Many boat builders are now offering specially designed wide beam craft with higher gunwales that give live-aboard boaters the opportunity for VAT savings. Misconceptions regarding VAT exempt vessels & residential usage: There is no legal requirement that a VAT-free vessel be designed as or even used as a residence. Any conditions in HMRC’s Notice 744C (‘Ships, aircraft and associated supplies’) which go further than the statutory provisions are of no legal force. There is no legal justification for imposing an additional condition of permanent residential use.

The fact that we will all die one day is a really poor reason not to take steps to prevent premature and unnecessary death; like building a fence above a dangerous cliff face. Cancer is most definitely beatable; it will happen in time. No one is saying you can't take risks just that a mature attitude would say "I will take the obvious steps to protect myself and minimise my impact on others". That's exactly what fitting a carbon monoxide detector is doing to relate back to the original point. Sometimes society - through the elected bodies of Government - is best placed to understand where the balance of risk and reward for all lies. The attitude of "I'm free to do whatever I want and sod the consequences and what everyone else thinks" is a mental state I would associate with a child rather than an adult. Enjoy your sailing or whatever you are up to on the sea. Undoubtedly one of the most dangerous places you can go but no one here has even come close to suggesting you shouldn't be allowed. JP

I'm totally happy - thanks for the work you've put in Rich. I know how tough it is sometimes with work and personal commitments to fit in voluntary stuff.

That's all true, but why are people saying he is an idiot for not fitting a fuse, and condemning him for errors in the installation? He knows all this already and acknowledges he is outside his area of expertise. It's almost as if they haven't read the thread!

Yes and let's keep it that way. Remember, if you try to make something idiot-proof, the universe will respond by building a better idiot.

Why not just use a different name - it seems to work on other web-sites when you have 'overstayed your welcome'

To get back on topic..... I have a Trumatic C3402, (I think thats the model number), which provides warm air, and a small'ish amount of hot water, (12 litres?) - enough for a wash in the handbasin, and washing up the pots, but not a shower. The warm air heater is enough to take a chill out, but not enough to keep the boat warm when the world outside is cold. I also sense that it uses a lot of gas, (170-285 g/h according to the instructions). I guess a 13kg cylinder would be used in about 57 hours at 225 g/h. Iuse it mainly for hot water and, occasionally, for warm air heating. My main heater is a Boatman Stove, which keeps the boat nice and toasty, even in the depths of winter. keeping it going 24/7 uses a 20kg bag of Excel every 3 days, at £8 a bag. If I had to have one, or the other, for heating, the Trumatic would have to go, (I'd obviously need another source for water heating, so it suits me to have both).

Or even the Ashby Canal

To answer the Q No 1: don't have a cratch. It makes it almost impossible to do anything useful at the sharp end No 2: don't recover people at the stern, as it means you can't use the boat's engine and so have no control. On still water this may be OK, on a river or tideway it won't be No 3: have heaving lines. and a ladder or scrambling net to help people get out. No 4: get the gongoozlers out of the way, unless they can do something useful.

The traditional material would be ordinary glazing putty. That's what I used to put the glasses in the brasses for a recently manufactured pigeon box. It seems to be working just fine.

I don't remember yours being especially fat. What beam are you? Oh, and same question for your bote <snigger>

It's always fair to give some notice,even as little a week. Don't burn bridges etc.

Didyou get your money on the same day the sale went through like I did or did you have to wait lets say 14 days just for the fun of it?

Yes, fortunately -- perhaps that accident will happen and we won't have to read your selfish rants any more.

Launched successfully at bottom flash

Luv it and thats what I have generaly but not always found. Thanks god I dont have to leave my boat and go and live in some sort of weird building why do people do that?

I guess that if they will give you a certified VAT invoice saying they have charged VAT @ zero%, and an indemnity to guarantee that in the event that HMRC subsequently dispute the tax rate they will themselves be liable for tax then found due it might make sense.

Generaly speaking people leave a small gap which is what I ended up doing the SECOND time after my c--- up and then frame the panels with some sort of nice trim/hardwood where the panels can move without actualy being seen. We will all have heard the large cracking noises boats make on a hot day and later when cooling and contracting. Someone with greater boat fitting knowledge than the one I have fully fitted will probably be along with a better idea.

and the convivial atmosphere created by the company we were in

I think some commentators like the sound of their own voice more than taking time to learn facts. Time consuming it may be, but it should be essential to collect information either from up to date entry forms, or from the crews on the day or immediately prior to. Just another reason I don't attend. I was a 'forriner' to the cut myself once (am again), and it seems to be populated by show offs and know-alls who know little. But with a few exceptions, few of us know carrying for a living any more than few of us work steam engines on the roads for a living. Better we see some boats than none at all I guess, but getting it right is also better than getting it wrong.

That is what I wanted to say but thought I ought to be kind.

Or more accurately, land based tradespeople with no experience of boats may find it strange and feck it up accordingly.

Great Hayward have a very dodgy reputation on here. Possibly even worse than Wilton. The big difference is Great Hayward are very protective of their 'reputation' and have a track record of pressuring the site management here into taking down threads that contain negative comments about them, so their poor reputation doesn't get propagated like Wilton's. Stand by for this thread to be deleted. The thing is, there is nothing wrong with dealing with the sharks if they have the boat you want, provided you know what you are dealing with and don't trust them an inch. Ethical and trustworthy brokers e.g. ABNB are a joy to deal with in contrast, however.

I looked into this sometime ago, and if you want to know more then read this - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-744c-ships-aircraft-and-associated-services/vat-notice-744c-ships-aircraft-and-associated-services But it is very clear that just because it is a widebeam boat that you live on does not make it VAT exempt. The link above is actually very readable for a gov't document.

Sorry to come into this a bit late. I used to work for HMRC, and my specialism was capital gains tax. This will be a long post, but please bear with. There is a "market value rule", at Section 17 TCGA 1992, whereby certain transactions are deemed to take place at market value. So in this scenario and drawing on some of the previous comments: Asset gifted with no consideration passing - disposed of at market value, acquired at market value. Asset "won in a game of cards" - obvious sham, market value rule applies, so disposed of at market value, acquired at market value. (It's an obvious sham because the "game" could only be played with the intended recipient of the asset. The acid test is whether the party disposing of the asset would have played such a game with a random stranger.) Asset sold for £1 - the test is whether one party to the transaction had the intention of conferring a gratuitous benefit on the other party. Selling a £30,000 asset for £1: an obvious gratuitous benefit conferred on the buyer. A "creative" description as to condition/low valuation of the asset would have to be supported by appropriate third-party evidence. Market value rule applies, so disposed of at market value, acquired at market value. And staying with this example, if the person buying for £1 then sells the asset for £30,000, the basic CGT computation will not be £30,000 less £1 = gain £29,999. It will be £30,000 less £30,000. The example of the £500 house purchase - again it would be deemed to have been disposed of at market value, acquired at market value. But I have good news. Narrowboats are wasting assets, deemed to be so by Section 44(1)(c) TCGA 1992. Section 45 TCGA 1992 states that a chattel (tangible, moveable property) which is a wasting asset shall be exempt from CGT unless it has been used in a trade, profession or vocation (loosely speaking, used as a business asset). So CGT is usually not chargeable on narrowboats ... in fact not usually on any boat. Why? I hear you ask. Are HMRC being exceedingly generous? No. If CGT was chargeable on any gain on the disposal of such an asset, then it would follow that an allowable capital loss would arise on the majority of disposals. The same applies to cars, for which there is special legislation. You will not pay CGT on any gain on a classic car, but neither can you claim any capital loss on the disposal of a "normal" car. Items such as household furniture etc sold at a loss do not produce allowable capital losses. The main point of this legislation is that the tax lost from allowable losses would far exceed the tax received on chargeable gains - so the simple solution is to make relevant assets exempt. The points regarding inheritance tax are broadly correct - a gift of an asset or money is a potentially exempt transfer on which IHT might be charged. The IHT charge is tapered as the years pass. MP

. . . and pulling people's mooring pins out.

The man came on here for help and support to deal with mistakes of his own and others resulting in the prospect of enormous bills. He has got the clarification, admitted some of his own shortcomings, and is still in need of tea & sympathy. There is no need to harry the guy further. imho.

Rugby boat sales is supposed to not be as good anymore as in the Dominic days, but probably still worth a try. The boat of the link doesn't look bad, OK it's made by a budget builder but it's there and ready to start doing to her what you want to adapt her to your own wishes and taste. She's only 3 years old, and only 1200 engine hours, you can of course always try your luck with a cash offer, which many sellers are very interested in. Questions about topilets are imo a waste of time here, as there are some people that only want cassette toilets, others that only want pump-outs and then there are the increasingly popular composting toilets too, it's all a very personal choice, but shouldn't be the reason why you buy or not buy, as it's not too difficult to change from one to another. You can also find on the forum that people that only wanted a cassette toilet, found a boat that thicked almost all the boxes for them apart from the toilet system that they were definitely going to change, and live happily since 5 years or more with exactly the same toilet, and wouldn't want to change for anything else now. Good luck with your search, Peter.

http://canalworld.net/forums/index.php?/topic/91761-lymm-historic-transport-day-this-sunday/ Listed as going to Lymm here

A happy discovery: the tiller arm is a snug fit over the spout of the washbasin taps, enabling me to wield the biggest spanner on the scaled-up tap to change its washer.